Participant Profile
Mutsuko Hatano
Other : Professor, Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, School of Engineering, Tokyo Institute of TechnologyOther : President of the Japan Society of Applied PhysicsFaculty of Science and Technology GraduatedKeio University alumni (1983 Engineering). Ph.D. in Engineering. After working at the Central Research Laboratory of Hitachi, Ltd., she became a professor at Tokyo Institute of Technology in 2010. President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics in 2020 (until March 2022).
Mutsuko Hatano
Other : Professor, Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, School of Engineering, Tokyo Institute of TechnologyOther : President of the Japan Society of Applied PhysicsFaculty of Science and Technology GraduatedKeio University alumni (1983 Engineering). Ph.D. in Engineering. After working at the Central Research Laboratory of Hitachi, Ltd., she became a professor at Tokyo Institute of Technology in 2010. President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics in 2020 (until March 2022).
Interviewer: Shinnosuke Obi
Faculty of Science and Technology Professor, Department of Mechanical EngineeringInterviewer: Shinnosuke Obi
Faculty of Science and Technology Professor, Department of Mechanical Engineering
From Corporate Practice to University Education and Research
──First, I would like to talk about your specialty, diamond research. In terms of your career, you entered Tokyo Tech after conducting research from a corporate perspective at Hitachi's research laboratory.
In the corporate world, after basic research on superconducting devices aimed at applications in supercomputers, I was engaged in research and development directly linked to business, such as power devices and mobile displays, and also served as a project leader for a new business related to environmental electronics.
When I moved to Tokyo Tech, I scrapped everything once to start fresh and began a new theme using the ultimate semiconductor material: diamond, the king of gemstones.
I believe it is important to fuse different fields to create new value. It was a zero-start, but I challenged myself to see if I could create a new research field through collaboration with multiple research institutions. I also received guidance from President Kohei Itoh, who was already a leader in diamond quantum research, and we co-organized international symposia. I truly feel that the importance of interdisciplinary fusion and comprehensive knowledge was something I was educated in at Keio.
Currently, I am conducting research on diamond quantum sensors aimed at solving social issues in healthcare and low-carbon societies.
──Where did you obtain your doctoral degree?
I obtained my degree at Keio as a Dissertation Doctor after graduating from the Department of Electrical Engineering and joining Hitachi's Central Research Laboratory. The theme of my dissertation was research on superconducting devices.
──So you were writing papers even after joining a company after graduating from the Department of Electrical Engineering.
Yes. Writing five papers was required to obtain the degree, so I published six papers and had them reviewed as my doctoral dissertation. The important question with no right answer during the oral examination—"Will this become a technology that benefits humanity?"—still leaves an impression on me today.
In the corporate world, it was before the enactment of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, and the utilization of female researchers was in a trial stage. However, I was blessed with the understanding of those around me. To keep up with men, I was given the opportunity with the advice that "it's better to get a doctorate early, but do it outside of working hours." My eldest daughter, who was two years old at the time, even accompanied me to meetings with my examining professor; the professors at Keio were very understanding. My eldest daughter also dressed up and attended the commencement at the Mita Enzetsukan (Public Speaking Hall).
When I was an undergraduate, it was just the time when the Department of Physics was being established at Keio. There were prominent professors such as Ryogo Kubo, Fumiko Yonezawa, Junya Seko, and Hideki Miyajima, who also guided me during my doctoral examination, and Keio was becoming active in preparing the environment for them. Liquid helium facilities and other equipment necessary for superconductivity research began to be set up at Yagami, and I became able to conduct experiments in the Yagami laboratory without having to commute to the Electrotechnical Laboratory (ETL), which was a collaborative research partner.
──It hadn't been long since the Faculty of Engineering moved from Koganei to Yagami, so there was that kind of atmosphere.
Differences Between Research in Corporations and Universities
──Currently, your work involves various areas such as research, education, administration, and social contribution. How do you spend your time?
I am hands-on and love talking and experimenting with students, but I can't take enough time for it, which causes stress. Taking the COVID-19 pandemic as an opportunity, I built an autonomous knowledge-sharing system in real-time, but I truly feel that nothing beats face-to-face interaction for student guidance. On the other hand, as you pointed out, my time is taken up by research projects, academic society management, and administrative work, which are also important.
I expected university professors to be free and have time to think deeply, but no, everyone is super busy (laughs). That situation is worsening year by year, and I feel it hinders creative research and education.
In education, I served as a program coordinator for the "Program for Leading Graduate Schools," focusing on nurturing doctoral students required by global society and corporations. Students who received this education are now active worldwide. However, the receiving side of doctoral talent—from traditional companies to startups and even public sectors including ministries—is still insufficiently prepared, with issues such as not providing a premium for doctoral talent. On the other hand, I think most Japanese companies are in the stage of transitioning from traditional membership-type to job-type employment, so I think now is a good opportunity to change that.
However, compared to overseas students, Japanese students seem to show weakness in the ability to construct logic and verbalize things, and as a result, they don't seem to be able to demonstrate leadership. The corporate side should also clearly demand that as a requirement for doctoral students.
Meanwhile, the decline in the ratio of basic research in companies and the decline in research capability itself are also seen as problems. Certainly, when I was in a company, especially in the semiconductor field, industry and academia teamed up, and companies led the way.
Even in the Japan Society of Applied Physics, corporate members often participate in lectures, but presentations are decreasing, which I find regrettable. Possible reasons for this include a focus on immediate profits due to short-term perspectives in corporate activities, stricter compliance, and the progress of oligopolies in various fields, which has weakened the motivation to open up technology. However, in the medium to long term, I believe that R&D investment has high profit and leads directly to the strengthening of human resources and corporate stamina. Furthermore, companies are now required to have social responsibilities such as ESG in addition to profits, and I expect the importance of universities and academic societies to increase.
──There used to be many corporate basic research laboratories, but many were closed after the bubble burst.
It is important for industry, government, and academia to team up to nurture the next generation of talent, but I think there is a mismatch in job-hunting activities. Current job hunting starts as soon as students enter the first year of their master's program, and I am disappointed, wondering if companies don't expect anything from university education.
If that were done after the master's thesis review in the second year, companies would be able to judge individuals properly, and the number of students advancing to Doctoral Programs would surely increase. I think it is very important for the country to nurture the fun of research and the desire to deepen research further. Furthermore, I would like incentives to be given to students who have obtained a doctorate.
──What is regrettable compared to advanced Western countries is, as you said, that companies do not expect much from university education. Furthermore, while they used to have considerable power to nurture people within the company, now they say they don't have the leeway, so please do it at the university. If that's the case, I wish they wouldn't interfere with recruitment activities while students are still in school.
You mentioned you are also involved in the Leading Graduate Schools; how are the students who went abroad?
Even spending just three months abroad provides stimulation and changes them completely. After all, there seem to be great harvests in the first experience of the outside world. Especially in my program, I created opportunities to stay not only at overseas universities but also at companies. They tell me about their impressions in those places, such as how all managers at a German chemical manufacturer have doctorates, or how an Indian company is expanding business to Africa by utilizing its geography. The first graduates are now 35 or 36 years old and are active as core members both domestically and internationally.
The Colors of Tokyo Tech and Keio
──What differences do you feel in the places where Keio graduates and Tokyo Tech graduates are active?
The colors are different, aren't they? Tokyo Tech students are serious and bright. They are good at math, excel in logical thinking, and their eyes shine when they solve equations. I think Tokyo Tech graduates play important roles in key areas that support advanced technology.
On the other hand, I think Keio students are better at finding global issues, expressing them, solving them as a team, designing, and creating new businesses. To make up for that, Tokyo Tech is focusing on liberal arts education. On the morning I arrived at Tokyo Tech, the students I shared an elevator with didn't even greet me and just got off first. I was surprised because that was unthinkable at Keio. When I told a Tokyo Tech professor, I was even more surprised when they said that forcing greetings is academic harassment.
Keio has strong connections between seniors and juniors, such as the Mita-kai, so I think students have many opportunities to learn about what is happening in the world from their seniors.
──Is that so? However, that varies quite a bit individually. Conversely, what are the good points of Tokyo Tech?
The students are truly humble and sincere. What kind of talent will be required in the future? According to a top person at Mitsui & Co., generalists only need to be a small number of elites, and "otaku"-like talent who excel in a certain ability is necessary. I smiled and said, "If that's the case, Tokyo Tech students will be in high demand" (laughs).
──How many female faculty members are there now?
I was actually the first female faculty member in the School of Engineering. When I joined Tokyo Tech from a company and was told I was the first woman in the School of Engineering, I was surprised. I felt that the world of academia was lagging behind. Although the number is gradually increasing, there are still few female students in the electrical and electronic fields.
──Do you think there is a relationship between an increase in female faculty and an increase in female students?
Not necessarily. If anything, I might expect too much from female students and be stricter with them instead.
As President of the Japan Society of Applied Physics
──In your position as the president of an academic society, is it easier to be called upon because you are a woman?
I am appointed to improve the female ratio, and there may be a downside where I become busy because I am a woman. However, I want to firmly play the role of a "stepping stone" for the success of the next generation of women.
──Does having women in the Japan Society of Applied Physics make discussions more active?
The Japan Society of Applied Physics is interdisciplinary as an academic field, and collaboration between industry, government, and academia is progressing, so it has a DNA that emphasizes diversity. Therefore, I am able to serve as president naturally.
However, female members are still few. Not limited to women, the promotion of diversity and inclusion and cross-disciplinary discussions are the driving forces for creating new value, and unless we derive optimal solutions from the clash of diversity, we cannot expect sustainability or development.
Of the approximately 20,000 members, one-third are corporate members, one-third are academia, and one-third are students. To increase female and overseas members, we are implementing measures to have senior members play an active role.
──How was it serving as president?
Since taking office, we were hit by the COVID pandemic, and I went back to the basics of what the role of a public interest incorporated association should be. However, I see it as an opportunity for transformation. Targeting social issues such as the new coronavirus and carbon neutrality, I encouraged cross-cutting discussions. I hope it will be useful for the integration and emergence of knowledge, improvement of scientific literacy, and the choice of science career paths for elementary, junior high, and high school students.
For lectures, we also prepared formats according to the situation and needs, such as hybrid online and face-to-face, and virtual reality. Also, international co-creation among academic societies is increasing in importance as political and economic fragmentation progresses. Utilizing online platforms, we frequently hold Roundtables of physics academic societies around the world. Surprisingly, the concerns are the same.
Expectations for Students
──How do you feel about the students?
Current students are called Generation Z, and I have great expectations for them. Gen Z emphasizes individuality and being oneself, has high awareness of the environment and social contribution, and naturally recognizes that diversity is important. I wonder if they are also a generation that was forced to be philosophical, watching the frivolous times before the bubble, the Lehman shock, and the economic downturn from a distance.
From now on, I expect them to realize the development from the fusion of physical/cyber space to a system where human inner space is highly integrated, enriching the spirit and society. Also, the way of working will change, and side jobs will increase. I myself am currently cross-appointed between Tokyo Tech and a National Research and Development Agency called QST (National Institutes for Quantum Science and Technology).
Therefore, I repeat, "Go to a doctoral program, see the world, and have a strength that is second to none."
──What about nurturing entrepreneurs?
The number of students getting jobs at startups has increased. However, I think it is fewer than Keio students. There is also the influence of seniors and families. There are master's students who are starting to say they want to start a business with their current research theme, so I have high expectations. In the future, Japan's position in the international community and what axis to live on will be something to think about.
──Japanese people do not understand Japan's values and strengths well. They say it's a small island nation, but if you place Kyushu on Spain on a map, Hokkaido reaches Denmark. Despite being a country with that much spread, in the end, everything is concentrated in Tokyo. I hope we can be conscious of diversity and utilize the strengths of each region.
We should shuffle more within Japan. Since remote work has progressed, I think that is a possibility.
──At any rate, as long as there is unipolar concentration in Tokyo, rural areas will continue to thin out.
I also want to spread research on quantum sensors and the development of quantum talent. I am envisioning a research ecosystem that is easy for anyone to enter and functions flexibly in every corner of the country.
At Keio, I was surprised that President Kohei Itoh built the cutting-edge quantum computer research base "IBM Q Hub" early on. I am impressed because he has the original ideas and execution power unique to President Itoh to make quantum computers useful for society through co-creation with companies in various industries, and he has a strong global network based on relationships of trust.
Positively Supporting Female Researchers
──Teaching at Tokyo Tech, do you feel yourself that you were raised at Keio?
I sometimes give students homework that requires comprehensive knowledge to think for themselves, and I think this kind of education is something I learned at Keio. Professor Kohei Ohnishi (currently Professor Emeritus), who helped me at the Science Council, conducts original research that fuses the different fields of electricity, machinery, and information. I think it's because of Keio that one can go beyond one's own field and be useful to society.
──I think Keio is an environment where it's easy to have the mindset of carving out a field for oneself.
Exactly as you say.
──What are your children doing?
My eldest daughter is in the legal profession. My second daughter graduated from Keio's Faculty of Letters and is at an airline. It seems the power of the Keio network is great even after graduation.
──So, both of them have no connection to the science and engineering fields.
Not at all. It's terrible, isn't it? (laughs). I was mostly absent doing experiments even on Saturdays and Sundays, so they didn't want to be like that. Despite that, I want to continue to support female researchers so they can be even more active and so the number of women aiming to be researchers increases.
──I look forward to your continued success. Thank you very much for today.
(Recorded on January 21, 2022, at Mita Campus)
*Affiliations and titles are as of the time of publication.