[Feature: Disability and Society] Roundtable Discussion: Thinking About the Future of Employment for People with Disabilities

Today, we have gathered people who are actually involved in various ways under the theme of employment of people with disabilities, and I would like to hear your stories.

More than 10 years have passed since the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act came into effect in 2006. Since then, various laws have been established, such as the amendment of the Act on Employment Promotion etc. of Persons with Disabilities (enacted in 1960), and the enforcement of the Act on the Comprehensive Support for the Daily and Community Life of Persons with Disabilities and the Act on the Elimination of Discrimination against Persons with Disabilities. I believe that a foundation has been created to some extent to accept people with disabilities into the workplace and society. It seems that various prejudices are gradually disappearing, and a major paradigm shift from the "medical model to the social model" of disability has also occurred.

In addition, the obligation to employ people with mental disabilities began in April of this year, and the statutory employment rate for people with disabilities has risen further. I believe that employment of people with disabilities is currently at a major turning point. In the midst of this, this summer, the issue of inflated numbers of employed persons with disabilities at central government ministries and agencies made headlines.

Today, we have a person with a mental disability participating, and I hope we can have a frank discussion.

First of all, it is certain that the employment of people with disabilities in Japan has made considerable progress over the past 10 years, but I would like to ask you to talk about what specific progress has been made during that time and how you evaluate it from your respective positions. First, Mr. Marumono, what do you think?

First, I will speak from the perspective of the policies of the government and the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare. As a nation, we have rushed to develop legislation with the primary goal of ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (adopted in 2006, ratification approved by Japan in 2014). In addition, the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare has aimed primarily at the quantitative expansion of employment and has steadily increased the number of employed persons. In particular, with the "mandatory employment of people with mental disabilities" starting in April of this year, this movement has accelerated, and the statutory employment rate has jumped (from 2.0% to 2.2% for private companies). However, because these measures were pushed forward rapidly, various problems have emerged.

The burden of employing people with disabilities falls mostly on the companies and organizations that accept them. When large numbers are mandated in a short period of time, the side accepting people with disabilities loses the leeway to think about the essential question of "why we must employ people with disabilities," and there is a sense that they have ended up just trying to make the numbers match to achieve the statutory employment rate. I think the typical example of this is the "inflated numbers issue" that has been causing a stir recently.

To solve this problem, I believe we are at a turning point where we need to shift from policies that emphasize numbers, such as the "quantity of employment," to policies that emphasize ease of working, such as the "quality of employment."

Since the numbers have increased considerably, there has been a certain level of achievement. However, as a result of the government pushing companies, various distortions have also emerged.

Next, I would like to hear from Mr. Idenawa. After working at a company, Mr. Idenawa has been working in welfare. Looking back on the progress of the past 10 years from the standpoint of supporting the employment of people with disabilities, what are your thoughts?

I haven't been in the welfare field all along; after my father passed away 14 years ago, I entered the world of welfare from a company to succeed him. It is a facility for people with intellectual disabilities in Hiratsuka called Social Welfare Corporation Shinwa Gakuen.

There are about 500 users, and about 200 of them are in employment-related programs, doing various things centered on the assembly of automobile parts for Honda. Kenshin Co., Ltd. is the sales contact company for Shinwa Gakuen.

I entered the world of welfare in 2005, and the enforcement of the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act the following year was a major reform, the first in half a century even in the field of welfare. Until then, it was called the "era of administrative measures." What changed with the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act was the emergence of the word "user." This means that people with disabilities are not subjects of administrative measures, but are in the position of consumers who use welfare services.

On the other hand, as Mr. Marumono mentioned, labor policies such as the employment of people with disabilities also progressed rapidly. Linking with that to some extent, "from welfare to employment" became a slogan for welfare policy, and a new business called "Employment Transition Support Business" based on the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act was created.

This involves public funds with high unit prices being paid to welfare facilities as subsidies in order to place people using welfare facilities into general employment. Every facility jumped at this Employment Transition Support Business. This is a business that trains people coming from special needs schools within a fixed-term two-year program and sends them out into general employment.

It is ideal for people with disabilities to be employed and work in general companies, but reality is not that simple. To be blunt, I think those who can go into general employment are only a small fraction. Many people must continue to work within welfare facilities. Even before then, the gap between welfare and employment was large, but the disparity between welfare and employment has widened further.

Therefore, partly because it was felt that the disparity should not widen too much, "Employment Continued Support Type A Offices" were created within the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act. This is a so-called "employment type" where the office enters into an employment contract with the person with a disability, and the government actively encouraged this. As a result, the number of Type A offices increased about fivefold in just five or six years, from 707 in 2010 to 3,455 in 2016.

It increased too rapidly, didn't it?

That's right. This also brought about distortions. For companies, running a Type A office brings in welfare budgets—that is, subsidies—and quite a few "bad Type A" offices appeared that were aiming for those subsidies.

Deciding that this could not continue and that we should aim to make Type A offices sound, a national organization called Zen-A-Net (National Association of Employment Continued Support Type A Offices) was formed about three years ago. The government is also providing guidance to make Type A offices sound, and I believe that Type A offices will be weeded out in the future.

In short, I think both labor policies and welfare policies have aimed for quantitative expansion over the past 10 years. In the future, I believe we need systems and policies that aim for the "total best," where more diverse places of employment such as hybrid models of welfare and employment are created, allowing people with disabilities to make various choices, and where quality and quantity are balanced and consistent.

You have pointed out a very good point. Despite the considerable gap between the welfare field and corporate employment, the employment rate was raised anyway, but people attending welfare facilities cannot enter general employment so easily.

Even so, by increasing Type A offices, something quite unnatural has occurred. Originally, more work was needed to bridge the gap between the two to some extent.

In particular, I think there is a significant lack of consideration for those who have no choice but to work in a non-employment format, the so-called "Employment Continued Support Type B." Among those working in Type B, which used to be called sheltered workshops, there are some with quite high abilities, but even so, they cannot go to Type A, and general employment is difficult.

Those who go to Type A have their rights as workers protected, but those in Type B are treated as trainees and cannot even work overtime. I think this is a human rights issue for people working in Type B. The ILO has also pointed out that the employment format of users in Japanese sheltered workshops is a violation of recommendations, and it is also being called an issue regarding the worker status of those working in welfare facilities.

Next, I would like to ask Mr. Mitsui, who is involved in the employment of people with disabilities at Recruit, to speak about the progress of the past 10 years from a corporate perspective.

Ten years ago was the year the Lehman shock occurred, but the economy recovered after that. I took this job about seven years ago, and I feel that from that time, regarding the employment of people with disabilities, it was an era of expansion after expansion, along with the enhancement of legal aspects.

There are various challenges, but looking at the positive side first, because there is a number called the statutory employment rate, we as a company had no choice but to challenge ourselves with various things.

I think there have been three challenges since I arrived. The first point is that we accepted people with mental disabilities, whom we had not accepted until then. We have been exploring ways to utilize their abilities by figuring out how they can work as colleagues.

The second point is that we accepted people with immune disorders. These people have social disabilities rather than physical disabilities, and I think there was still resistance from those around them about working together. We gradually created a foundation for accepting such people within the company by holding study sessions and the like. Now, we accept about 30 people, with about one person in each department. When it becomes like this, everyone feels they can come and work at this company.

The third point is the acceptance of people working from home in regional areas. We started with the hypothesis that there might be people with disabilities living in regional areas who are talented but unable to work because they cannot reach jobs. Currently, 52 people with disabilities are working in the form of regional telecommuting. It was difficult because we set high goals, but that's exactly why I'm doing it with the positive thought that we must do things that haven't been done before.

On the negative side, some companies have emerged that do things like disguised employment that are a bit suspicious. I wonder about that.

I see. While some companies took the gradual increase in the statutory employment rate positively, thinking, "Alright, let's give it a challenge," other companies felt a considerable burden.

In the case of Recruit in particular, since your main business is related to human resources, it feels like you are taking it positively.

I believe we are a company in a position where we must act that way.

Now, Mr. Sekimura, I would like you to look back and tell us what you think of the past 10 years from the perspective of a person with a mental disability.

I think there are still many people with disabilities who cannot be open about their disability in the workplace. I work mainly as a social insurance and labor consultant in the position of a sole proprietor, but I also work a little in an employed capacity elsewhere. Also, as a person with schizophrenia, I am active in being open about my disability and spreading understanding.

The reality of society is that many people with disabilities cannot speak up. Therefore, I have been active with the theme of becoming their spokesperson, deepening people's understanding of disabilities, and eliminating discrimination.

For myself, both my work with disability pensions as a social insurance and labor consultant and the part where I am employed and working involve doing things I like, so I don't feel stress, and I am truly happy to be able to engage in the activities I like in this way.

However, only a very few people with disabilities can feel this kind of happiness, and the vast majority are still unable to be employed and cannot have a point of contact with society. As a person with schizophrenia, I hope that employment and workplaces that develop the advantages or strengths of people with disabilities will increase.

Mr. Mitsui, you mentioned that you have been making various efforts regarding people with mental disabilities over the past 10 years. From the corporate side, is there consideration for having such individuals do things they are good at?

Companies may not have reached the point of providing that much consideration. Right now, we are at the stage of "let's accept them anyway," and even then, it might be at the level of "we have a foundation to accept those who have exceeded a certain level."

I think there are still difficult aspects to accepting people with major disability characteristics, at least when considering commuting every day. They are required to come to the office in the morning, say "Good morning," and spend their time behaving "normally." I think this "normalcy" is often painful, especially for people with mental disabilities.

When it comes to working from home, the range of "normal" expands. I mentioned earlier that there are 52 people working from home, and there are quite a few people with schizophrenia, including someone who says, "I am talking to aliens."

I was like that too (laughs).

They say things like, "The earthquake that happened in Hokkaido the other day was my responsibility." But even that person can say "Good morning" in the morning via video conference in the environment of their home and work normally via chat. So, I have a feeling that the employment of people with mental disabilities might expand a bit more through the use of ICT.

I see, that's interesting. Mr. Idenawa, when trying to link people with mental disabilities from welfare to employment in the welfare field, the method is different from the traditional way for people with intellectual disabilities, isn't it? What kind of ingenuity can be applied from the welfare side in that regard?

That is difficult, and I am always troubled by it. Shinwa Gakuen, which we run, was originally a facility for people with intellectual disabilities, but the way of support for intellectual disabilities and mental disabilities can sometimes be the exact opposite.

People with intellectual disabilities may have a low IQ, but they are physically healthy and mentally stable, so when they come in the morning and I say, "Good morning, let's do our best today," they respond brightly with an "Oh!" However, if you do that to a person with a mental disability, they feel it as a burden instead.

We were admonished by staff at welfare facilities specializing in mental disabilities that while it's okay to say "You did your best" later, you must not say "Let's do our best." I always end up doing the "Let's do our best!" thing (laughs).

So you have to check their condition properly before speaking to them.

That's right. After all, we must thoroughly study support methods that match the characteristics of the disability.

With the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act, the barriers between the three disabilities (physical, intellectual, and mental) were removed, and it became possible to accept all people with disabilities, so Shinwa Gakuen must also actively accept people with mental disabilities.

However, because the staff side lacks experience, it is quite difficult. I think the welfare side also needs to study more.

The reason the statutory employment rate for people with disabilities for companies rose from 2% to 2.2% this year is that the employment of people with mental disabilities became mandatory. However, looking at actual statistics, if we were to seriously consider accepting people with mental disabilities into the workplace, an increase of only 0.2% is an impossibly low figure.

I interpret this 0.2% as a figure based on social conditions and the like, including a bit of—to use a bad phrase—discretionary adjustment. Mr. Marumono, do you think that with an increase of 0.2 percentage points, the employment of people with mental disabilities, which currently faces various challenges, will actually progress?

As far as people with mental disabilities are concerned, a 0.2% increase in the statutory employment rate is completely insufficient to accept all those who "want to work." I agree with Mr. Nakajima's point about it being a "discretionary adjustment based on social conditions." However, I think a rapid increase would dampen the hiring motivation of the accepting side. So, I think it is an employment rate that balances things with "measures to mitigate drastic changes." On the other hand, since 50% of companies fail to meet the employment rate, it will be important to think about how to get them to employ people.

In any case, as I said at the beginning, I want companies to employ people while thinking about the "essence" of employing people with disabilities, rather than just employing them to match the numbers.

Also, while it is called the "mandatory employment of people with mental disabilities," companies are not told what percentage of people with mental disabilities they must employ. Therefore, I hear that people with mental disabilities, for whom management methods have not been established, are sometimes avoided at joint interview sessions, which are places for recruitment. Though it seems to vary slightly by region.

Mr. Idenawa, from the welfare side, is it desirable for the statutory employment rate to go up?

I think the statutory employment rate, the so-called quota system, is good. Germany and France also adopt it, and it's hard to evaluate without numbers. However, to ensure it doesn't end with just matching numbers, it's important to successfully involve qualitative guarantees and aim for harmony as a whole.

In particular, the coordination and fusion of labor and welfare have been talked about for a long time, but even if you go to the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare, if you go to the labor department, it's run by people who don't understand welfare at all. Conversely, if you go to the welfare department, they don't understand labor at all.

Even so, I think things are getting better little by little. I think it is a great step forward that users became consumers in the welfare field. If people with disabilities do not choose welfare services, competition will not occur, and bad facilities will not be weeded out.

When the Services and Supports for Persons with Disabilities Act was created, a five-year plan to double wages started in 2007. The goal was to double the average wage of people with disabilities working in sheltered workshops and employment continued support offices. The Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare put a lot of effort into this, but what it amounted to was bringing in management consultants to improve the quality of independent products.

As for whether that achieved results, the average wage at Type B welfare facilities is still 15,000 yen (per month). It has certainly gone up a little, so I won't say it was a complete failure, but the result is far from what was initially envisioned. After all, there is no high-quality work in welfare facilities. It's difficult to be told to compete with independent products.

In the past, welfare facilities were typically known for baking cookies or bread. Fortunately, our facility produced a hit product called "Shonan Mandarin Bread," so it was good, but other places are really struggling.

Therefore, I think the concept of "deemed employment" proposed by Mr. Nakajima is good.

"Deemed employment" is a method where the welfare side and the corporate employment side collaborate. Since immediate general employment is quite difficult, the welfare side takes on work and has people with mental disabilities work even for short periods. By observing them at that time, those who can work are employed, and the company side counts a portion of that toward their disability employment based on the volume of work ordered from the welfare side.

It's a system where high-quality work is provided to welfare facilities. It's a hybrid model of welfare and labor that is happy for everyone: the working person with a disability, the company ordering the work, and the supporting organization.

Companies must hire people with disabilities to raise their employment rate. On the other hand, in the welfare field, Type A offices must pay salaries, so they must increase productivity. Type B offices are told to increase wages. It's extremely difficult to achieve all of those, isn't it?

From the company's perspective, they cannot hire people with disabilities unless people with reasonably high productivity come in from the welfare side.

That's right. I think it's especially tough for medium-sized and small enterprises with about 300 or 400 employees. More than half of the companies are in a situation where they could achieve the employment rate with just one or two more people. The reason they can't do those one or two people is that they don't know what a person with a disability is like, and even if they hire them, they can't afford the management costs. I think that's the problem.

In that case, as Mr. Nakajima said, I think the first step is to have them understand it in the form of "deemed employment."

In the case of the Recruit Group, it was a situation where special subsidiaries completely employed people with disabilities, so until I came to this company, I had no contact with people with disabilities. That's why I didn't know. For things you don't know, you become afraid or feel you shouldn't touch them. If there were a mechanism like "deemed employment" that connects them, I think the "don't know" part would start to change.

Mr. Sekimura, I think you have associations with other people with mental disabilities. How do you perceive the fact that the current employment rate has risen by 0.2%? What kind of impact do you think it will have in terms of working styles?

My peers with mental disabilities—we call them "peers"—all expected that the employment rate for people with disabilities had gone up, but many find that jobs are not easily decided. I feel like nothing has changed in the current situation.

I have a feeling that things might change somewhat if we continue like this, though.

Regarding what Mr. Mitsui said earlier, if a person with a mental disability enters a place that is short by one or two people all by themselves and is expected to work normally, wouldn't there be anxiety on the part of the worker as well?

As you say, it might indeed lead to a sense of bewilderment.

"How do flexible working styles, such as 'deemed employment,' look from the perspective of those directly involved? I imagine there are difficult aspects to suddenly going to a company and working full-time every day."

"I feel that would be a bit difficult. There are fluctuations in physical condition, so rather than a fixed 40-hour full-time week, I think it's incredibly important to be able to work flexibly—for example, being able to take a day off after working for two days."

"However, for the company side, it would be difficult to suddenly introduce such a system to all departments in their core business, as it would require a rapid change to the entire system."

"That's true. In a special subsidiary like ours, there are inevitably many tasks where everyone starts and finishes together. This makes it hard to be flexible because the mindset becomes 'let's work properly from 9 to 5.' However, a system where work ends at 5 with no overtime is easy to implement."

"Mr. Idenawa, from the perspective of the welfare field, do you have confidence or expectations that you could secure more work if a 'deemed employment' system were introduced?"

"Very much so. We have been receiving orders from Honda for 45 years, and in fiscal 2006, a system called the Special Adjustment Grant was established. Within the Act on Employment Promotion etc. of Persons with Disabilities, a support system for home-based workers with disabilities was created. Under this system, when people with physical disabilities who cannot commute work from home, companies outsource work rather than employing them directly, and a certain amount of subsidy called a Special Adjustment Grant is paid to the outsourcing company based on the labor costs paid. In addition to homes, welfare facilities that meet certain conditions are also covered."

"Under the Act on Employment Promotion etc. of Persons with Disabilities, Disability Employment Adjustment Grants and rewards are paid for direct employment, but Special Adjustment Grants and Special Rewards are paid in addition to those. This was an extremely groundbreaking system."

"Until then, no matter how much work Honda provided for people with disabilities, there was nothing that led to social recognition for Honda, despite the fact that they were providing work in the welfare employment sector even after meeting the statutory employment rate. Since this system was established, Honda has been receiving Special Adjustment Grants since 2008. Currently, Honda is the only company in the automobile industry to do so."

"Also, in 2015, the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare established an award system to recognize companies that actively outsource work to welfare facilities, and 10 companies, including Honda, Kao, and JR Kyushu, were recognized. They were honored for contributing to the improvement of welfare by prioritizing outsourcing to welfare facilities rather than just direct employment of people with disabilities. I think this is a very good measure."

"If 'deemed employment' and these types of outsourcing incentives are strengthened further, companies will benefit from subsidies, and if it counts toward the statutory employment rate, I think the situation will change considerably. Furthermore, since companies will look for places that strictly adhere to price, quality, and deadlines, competitive principles will come into play within welfare facilities. I believe this will become an incentive to raise wages within the welfare system."

"Currently, there is no incentive to increase wages in welfare facilities. As Mr. Nakajima pointed out in his book, the salaries of welfare facility staff come from public funds (Self-Reliance Support Benefits), so even if the wages for the disabled increase from 15,000 yen to 30,000 yen, the staff's salaries hardly change. I believe this is a major cause of the stagnation in welfare employment."

"That's right. Furthermore, since the benefits currently received cannot be used for the wages of people with disabilities, staff are instead diverting their own labor hours to the work of people with disabilities. They are somehow managing to pay wages that way."

"I think welfare facilities doing such things are actually admirable. In short, they are cutting their own salaries to pay wages to people with disabilities. It is strange for the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare to call that improper."

"However, if 'deemed employment' is introduced in the future and hardworking welfare facilities go out to pitch to companies and secure work, their sales will grow. This is called 'work accounting,' and since target wages for people with disabilities are set within this, once those are cleared, the next step should be to return the surplus to the staff."

"That would be an incentive."

"That is truly the ideal and what we are aiming for."

"Mr. Marumono, for example, in France, the statutory employment rate is 6%, but up to about 3% of that can be achieved through diverse forms of disability employment. For instance, companies can enter into individual labor agreements with people with disabilities, or they can outsource to facilities. The idea is to achieve the 6% through various forms."

"In contrast, Japan focuses on direct employment, and as the employment rate gradually rises, I think companies have concerns about how high it will go in the future. On the other hand, the management of welfare facilities is quite difficult in some areas."

"In this context, when thinking about the overall system, I feel it would be better to increase flexibility. Mr. Sekimura also pointed out that flexible working styles are easier for people with mental disabilities. As the Executive Director of the Zenjukyo (National Association of Employers of People with Severe Disabilities), how do you evaluate this?"

"When I think about 'what is best for people with disabilities,' I believe what matters is 'how many actual jobs are available and how many of them we can actually get.' To that end, an ideal scenario is a reasonable increase in the actual employment rate."

"As Mr. Nakajima just mentioned, the statutory employment rate is 6% in France and 5% in Germany. However, I hear the actual employment rate is about half of that. Compared to them, Japan's statutory rate is lower, but in reality, it has been rising steadily and properly, allowing many people with disabilities to work. I think this model is the best."

"I believe 'deemed employment' should be considered at a stage where the rate continues to rise to the point where many companies and organizations can no longer keep up. At that time, perhaps we could split it into two: the base portion would be actual employment, and the additional portion could be recognized as 'deemed employment.'"

"For example, up to 2% would be actual employment. Any amount exceeding that could be allowed through 'deemed employment.' There was a time when the employment rate for large corporations was considerably lower than for SMEs. I am concerned that if it becomes easier for large corporations to achieve the employment rate through 'deemed employment' rather than hiring people with mental disabilities they are unfamiliar with, companies might all move in that direction at once. I hope for a time when society's understanding of disability progresses and disability employment is no longer called 'meeting the numbers.'"

"How should disability employment be positioned for Japanese society in the future? We have already discussed how making the employment rate itself the goal can have negative effects, but I would like to hear your opinions on this. Mr. Idenawa, what do you think?"

"There is a term 'decent work.' It means 'productive work for women and men in conditions of freedom, equity, security, and human dignity.' I believe it is important to realize this decent work everywhere, whether in welfare employment, special subsidiaries, or general employment in companies."

"There are many types of people with handicaps, but my honest feeling is that only a handful can demonstrate vocational abilities that meet the Minimum Wage Act in general employment. In that sense, since over 200,000 people are currently working in Type B welfare facilities, from my position, I am ambitiously aiming for 'self-sustainable welfare employment.'"

"Specifically, the Basic Disability Pension provides about 60,000 to 70,000 yen, and the goal is to be able to live independently by combining that pension with the wages earned from work. According to the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare's estimates, a wage of about 50,000 yen per month—more than one-third of the minimum wage—is necessary."

"Currently, the average wage at Type B welfare facilities is about 15,000 yen, so we have to work about three times harder. How can we achieve that? It is an almost impossible task just by baking bread or cookies. Therefore, we should take orders from companies through 'deemed employment' and the like."

"As Mr. Marumono said, direct employment at companies could be mandated up to, say, 2%. For the portion exceeding that, orders could be placed with welfare facilities. This would raise the floor for welfare employment, and if the wages paid there are converted back by dividing by the minimum wage, it can be treated as 'deemed' employment."

"That's true."

"The Special Adjustment Grant system I introduced earlier considers 'deemed employment' in the form of subsidies, but it only applies to non-employment Type B facilities, while employment-type Type A facilities are excluded. This is a contradiction in the system, so we need to harmonize it properly."

"Also, from the welfare side, I think 'off-site work'—or in other words, 'in-company work'—is very good. This is because it is quite difficult to feel 'decent work' within a welfare facility."

"Currently, we send two teams to a supermarket called 'Shimamura' which has 11 stores in our local Hiratsuka. One staff member is attached to a team of four or five users, and this team handles back-yard operations."

"They bag vegetables, put products on shelves, clean, and even weed the parking lot. When they do that, local customers coming to the store say things like, 'You're working hard.' They are truly happy, and they can see that they are being useful. Shimamura Store places orders while also strictly complying with the statutory employment rate, and they were the first in the supermarket industry to receive the Special Adjustment Grant."

"Since a community-based supermarket in Hiratsuka is doing this, I think it should be expanded nationwide. I believe it would be good to evaluate that through 'deemed employment.'"

"By not confining socially necessary work within the framework of welfare but opening it up more, connections with society are created."

"Exactly. In terms of employment support for people with disabilities, facility staff have more know-how and a comparative advantage than company employees, and the burden of labor management for the company is lightened. Companies can also directly hire people who prove to be truly excellent by watching how they work. And if their disability becomes heavier or unstable, they can return to the facility. The fact that they work for that company doesn't change. I think a system where they can go back and forth is good for the individuals themselves."

"What you just described is exactly the Samhall model used in Sweden. At Samhall, a state-owned enterprise, the people with disabilities working there go to various companies to perform tasks like cleaning, stocking goods, and various other jobs. In terms of productivity, they cannot be paid enough for direct employment, so the companies do not employ them directly."

"In my facility, when working at Shimamura, the hourly wage is currently 400 yen. It's a format where four or five people cover the work of two part-time workers."

"In Samhall's case, 90% of labor costs are covered by subsidies. But the fact that they only provide up to 90% means that 10% of social surplus is being generated. In that respect, they are doing work that is needed."

"An hourly wage of 400 yen clears more than one-third of the minimum wage, so it is very helpful for Type B welfare facilities. It can serve as a model for self-sustainable welfare employment. The wage return rate is extremely high."

"They have truly become a part of the workforce."

"Since there is a labor shortage now, the supermarkets are also very pleased."

"Mr. Mitsui, what are your thoughts from a corporate perspective regarding disability employment for society?"

"I believe that people with disabilities are not uniform; they are a very diverse group. Before I knew about disability employment, my image of people with disabilities was monotone and uniform. But there are all kinds of people. There are people with various ways of living, various aspirations, and various abilities, so I hope we can provide various environments where those abilities can be utilized."

"Mr. Idenawa mentioned that employment in companies is difficult, and that is truly the case. We currently meet 1,000 people with disabilities a year, but we can only hire about 20. However, among them, there are those who want to work on equal footing with others within the Recruit Group, even if it is within the protected world of a special subsidiary. On the other hand, there are also those who prefer welfare-based employment. Therefore, I think it is best to have various options available."

"There are limits to what private companies can do, but for those who want to work in a private company, we want to provide a wide range of choices."

"Mr. Sekimura, currently in Japan, the number of psychiatric beds relative to the population is exceptionally high compared to the rest of the world, and hospital stays are said to be long. In this context, how should people with mental disabilities engage with society, particularly through employment? What kind of society do you hope for in the future?"

"This may be true for able-bodied people as well, but for people with disabilities, getting a job and earning money is something truly irreplaceable."

"If it were just about getting money, there are disability pensions, but opportunities to earn income from work in addition to that are hard to come by. Money isn't everything, but for people with disabilities, working and earning money is truly important."

"If you have money, you can interact with friends and go to various places. But if you don't, your contact with society disappears, and isolation deepens. I want people to understand that money is that important to people with disabilities."

"I used to be a caregiver, and now I work with disability pensions as a social insurance and labor consultant, so I interact with people with disabilities in that capacity as well. Even as someone with schizophrenia, I am sometimes told 'thank you' by clients and care recipients. When I think that working helps people and that they say 'thank you' to someone like me, it brings tears to my eyes."

"Work is truly important for people with disabilities in the sense that they can feel they are useful to society, and some people even recover their health by getting a job. I still cannot forget the joy of receiving my first paycheck. I was truly happy."

"Hiring people with disabilities in the workplace is fundamentally about understanding the disability. If that is missing, everything else disappears."

"I have opportunities to go to Sophia University, Shukutoku University, and others to teach about my experiences with schizophrenia and basic knowledge of disability pensions. Mental health education for young students is an important forward-looking investment for the future of mental health and welfare in Japan."

"I take pride in this activity as a major social contribution as a person with a disability, and I hope that such activities will spread throughout the country."

"Thank you very much. That was a story only someone directly involved could tell."

"Finally, Mr. Marumono, who has been involved in disability employment for the longest time, based on what has been discussed so far, could you tell us what direction you are considering for the future?"

"Mr. Sekimura mentioned that 'by working, I felt I was being useful to society,' and I think a society where people can truly feel that is the society we should aim for."

"What is most lacking in society right now is the desire to understand people with disabilities. How to foster that is something we must work on over the long term."

"People with mental disabilities often face job mismatches, and many quit after a short period. I think this often stems from a lack of understanding of disabilities among the people around them."

"Also, since Mr. Sekimura didn't mention it, I would like to say that 'peer counseling,' where people with disabilities listen to each other on equal footing, is being re-evaluated recently. People with mental disabilities feel relieved by talking about their struggles to others. Also, by hearing other people's experiences, they think about their own ways of coping. It's the same for able-bodied people, but being listened to has a huge significance."

"However, attending psychiatrists are very busy, so they won't listen to a single patient for 15 or 30 minutes. This leaves people with mental disabilities very dissatisfied, leading them to keep changing doctors, and eventually, many end up without a doctor they can trust."

"So, the doctor brings in a peer counselor to listen to the patient's story on their behalf. Since peer counselors are themselves people with mental disabilities, they understand the situation well, and the other person talks about anything straightforwardly."

"They then summarize what they heard compactly and relay it to the psychiatrist. Having people with mental disabilities work as peer counselors is very beneficial for psychiatrists."

"Also, there is a blind manager at a certain company who works on developing new products for the visually impaired. He uses the things he finds most difficult as a visually impaired person as ideas for product development."

"I think it is important for companies to find and create a wide range of jobs that can only be done by people with disabilities. By having people with disabilities do those jobs, people in society will realize, 'Our lives became easier because this person did this.' By doing so, people with disabilities will have a place in society. When they have a place, the idea of coexistence in society naturally emerges."

"Therefore, what we must do is create many jobs that can only be done by people with disabilities. I believe that by doing so, understanding of people with disabilities will deepen."

"Thank you very much. That was a very good discussion."

"Listening to everyone, I felt that disability employment is actually not just about people with disabilities. It's about facing the individual and determining what environment and working style are most desirable for them. What job truly suits that person? For people with disabilities, this is an urgent issue right in front of them, but it is also necessary for all working people."

"I feel that unless we position the importance of disability employment in that way, we won't get people at the front lines of employment interested. And as I truly felt through today's roundtable, if the currently highlighted 'work-style reform' incorporates the idea of disability employment—'adjusting the way of working to the human' through flexible employment formats—it will lead to the double benefit of improved happiness and productivity. In that sense, disability employment can be called a 'mirror reflecting society.'"

"Thank you all very much for today."