[Feature: Changing Families and Child-rearing] Roundtable Discussion: Changes in Child-rearing Awareness and the Obstacles to Them

Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy schedules to gather here today. Today, I would like to talk with you all on the theme of changes in family and child-rearing.

While it has been a long time since gender equality was first advocated, the review of gender roles within the home has progressed, and I believe that attitudes toward childcare have changed over the past decade, as seen in the rising rate of men taking childcare leave. On the other hand, it also appears that our society still faces various problems at the levels of policy, awareness, and behavior.

First, I would like to ask you to briefly introduce yourselves and, if you don't mind, your own involvement with child-rearing.

I am currently raising two children, aged 2 and 7, while living in my hometown of Kagawa as a "U-turn" resident.

Regarding my own child-rearing, my parents live about a five-minute walk away, so when I come to Tokyo for work, I am somehow able to manage my job with their help. I rely on them so much that I really wouldn't be able to work without them.

Also, last year, I was selected as an expert member of the "Children's Future Strategy Council," where I have been given various opportunities to express my opinions on issues such as the declining birthrate.

I am currently 30 years old, and my main profession is an occupational physician. I was originally in the obstetrics and gynecology department at a university, but now, as companies are increasing their interest in women's health care, I am in charge of occupational health for 20 companies in Tokyo.

In addition, as another job, I provide support for male childcare and childcare leave. Until now, male childcare leave has been promoted under the so-called "Ikumen" (involved fathers) trend, but from my position in obstetrics and gynecology and as an occupational physician, I felt a sense of crisis regarding the situation where men are told to "take childcare leave" without an environment properly in place to allow it. As one solution to this, I am working with male stakeholders to create support systems in local governments and companies. Last year, I published a book on male childcare leave titled "Post-Ikumen Male Childcare."

My specialty in the field of sociology was originally communication. However, a certain opportunity led me to write a series on child-rearing for the "Mainichi Shimbun," and when I wrote about "one-ope ikuji" (solo childcare), it became the catalyst for that term spreading throughout society. It wasn't a word I coined, but one used online; however, I ended up being the one who popularized it, and it was nominated for the Buzzword Award that year.

With that background, I also conducted ethnography and field research in parallel, and co-authored a book on that research the year before last ("Working Mothers and Stratification").

I have been conducting research in the field of family sociology for a long time. Up until now, I have mainly used quantitative data to look at issues related to work-life balance, women's employment, and child-rearing, focusing on what the current situation is and what changes have occurred. Now, I am interested in researching with a primary focus on the concept of time.

Finally, about myself: I am just about double Mr. Hirano's age. I have one child who is already 30, so my child-rearing period is over, but since my wife worked for a newspaper company, I did all the housework and childcare. People often think I'm lying (laughs), but I did 100% of it, and even now, housework is basically my role.

Therefore, I believe I understand the hardships and feelings of those raising children in my own way. I felt that one child was the most I could handle. My child was born when I was 31, but the 30s are a time when researchers must focus on their research, so it was difficult.

People often talk about balancing child-rearing and work, but in my case, it felt like I couldn't balance them; rather, I felt forced to prioritize childcare without pushing myself too hard at work.

Now, regarding the current situation and concerns of the child-rearing generation, I would like to ask Ms. Nakano, who is currently in the midst of raising children, to describe what kind of difficulties she is facing.

I personally feel very blessed with a support system because my parents are nearby. However, looking around me, there are many people doing "solo childcare."

Currently, I think the movement to take paternity leave after birth is really increasing. However, as you realize when you actually live in the regions, while there is a trend in large companies in Tokyo that you must take paternity leave and movements within companies to promote it, that is not progressing in the regions.

Especially in companies where men are the majority, such as in the construction industry, it seems difficult to take time off because taking childcare leave would increase the burden on those around them.

Also, currently, if you take childcare leave, 60% of your salary is supported, but even so, your income still decreases. Especially in the regions, many people have parents living nearby, so rather than the father taking childcare leave, working full-time while leaving the child with grandparents results in no loss of income. Grandparents are also often happy to look after their grandchildren.

I think paternity leave is a very good system, but I feel there are parts of it that are difficult to penetrate depending on the region or type of occupation.

According to data recently released by the NLI Research Institute, there was a temporary move back to the regions during COVID, and regional populations increased, but now an outflow to the cities is occurring again. In particular, it is said that women aged 18–22 are the ones moving to the cities the most.

One reason for this is that young women have started to seek partners who will help with childcare and companies with systems in place to allow it. That environment is difficult to find in the regions. Consequently, they leave wanting to marry in metropolitan areas, leading to an excess of women in the cities.

It is certainly true that men have become more able to take childcare leave. Currently, some large companies have made the benefit rate equivalent to 100% or made it a requirement for both men and women to take childcare leave. However, when it comes to whether small and medium-sized enterprises or sole proprietors can respond, the reality has not caught up at all.

The gap between large companies and others is widening significantly, and I believe this is becoming a problem.

So, does a kind of corporate disparity reflect the ease of taking childcare leave?

Clearly so.

I think that's not just a difference between the regions and Tokyo, but that disparities exist within the Tokyo metropolitan area as well. In the research we published two years ago, it was clear that differences emerge depending on social class. When talking to mothers who are not university graduates, many of their husbands work at construction sites. Many of the wives are social workers, caregivers, care managers, or nurses who leave their children at daycare centers.

In those cases, the idea of a man taking time off from work to look after a child at home seems unthinkable. Even when the husband comes home, he sleeps while playing games on his smartphone, and even if the wife says, "Daddy, do something," he won't. I was a bit surprised that such things are common even in the city.

On the other hand, when listening to high-achieving couples who both work for large companies, they are very progressive; fathers actively participate in children's events, and you hear many stories of them naturally taking childcare leave. Even within the same metropolitan area, there are groups living with completely different values.

The overall rate of fathers taking childcare leave is about 17% (preliminary figures from the FY2023 Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare survey), but the current reality is that this mostly consists of highly educated, progressive couples in the city.

Does this mean the disparity between classes is large? I believe this is Ms. Nishimura's specialty.

I also read Ms. Fujita's book, and I found it very eye-opening as it clearly showed the differences in involvement in childcare based on the combination of the couple's educational backgrounds.

Recently, I analyzed how the time women spend on housework and childcare has changed across generations. According to the "Panel Survey on Consumer Life" conducted by the Institute for Research on Household Economics, comparing those born in the late 1960s with those born in the early 1980s, the total time spent on housework and childcare was more than an hour less for the younger generation.

However, on the other hand, among the younger generation, there is a growing tendency for those in higher education groups to spend more time on housework and childcare. I thought that the disparity between classes—or perhaps the difference in how people engage with child-rearing—has been expanding in recent years.

There is a large national survey called the Survey on Time Use and Leisure Activities, and looking at that, childcare time has been increasing in recent years. On the other hand, housework time is decreasing. While the number of children born per couple has decreased slightly, there is a trend where the time spent on each child is actually increasing.

Also, in the past, Japanese women had a strong tendency to resign upon giving birth, regardless of their educational background. However, looking at data from the last four or five years, resignations at childbirth have decreased significantly. Among women who graduated from four-year universities, about 40% continue to work in regular employment even immediately after childbirth.

For non-university graduates as well, resignations at childbirth are basically decreasing. In this way, regardless of class, the trend of women continuing to work after childbirth is clearly emerging.

In this context, how is the nature of childcare changing? Ms. Nakano, what points did you find difficult in childcare?

I believe the "difficulty of raising children" that is being discussed as a problem in various places does indeed exist in Japan today. I lived in Singapore from the birth of my first child until they were about 3 years old, and there, everyone naturally helped with strollers, and when I was pregnant, people always gave up their seats on the train.

Because people interact with you so naturally, while there were difficult aspects of living abroad regarding childcare, I honestly never felt it was stressful.

So society was cooperative.

Yes. When I returned to Japan and tried to transfer from Shinjuku to the Keio Line, even if I was lost with a stroller at Shinjuku Station, no one would help. The elevators were endlessly far away. Even if I was troubled about where to go to get to the platform, everyone just passed by. I realized that this is the so-called difficulty of raising children in Japan.

I often hear that those raising children in the city are still told things when they get on a bus with a twin stroller, or are told that "children are noisy" even in parks.

In the "Children's Future Strategy Council," the idea of creating priority lanes where children can line up preferentially comes up, but I think that before creating such things, changing everyone's awareness should come first. A society that naturally values children, a society that gives way to those with children without them having to say "I'm sorry," and a society where the entire nation shares an attitude of tolerance even if children are noisy. I think we should make it a society where that is the norm.

My child is in elementary school, and I also feel that it is difficult to raise children.

I always feel what Ms. Nakano mentioned about station elevators being very far away. From the gender perspective that is often discussed lately, I think this is because they are mainly designed by men. Various recent studies have pointed out that cities are not built from the perspective of women or mothers, and I think there is an issue of gender inequality there.

Actually, the issue of strollers has repeatedly become a social problem since the 1970s. If you read newspaper articles from 50 years ago, almost the same arguments exist and are being repeated.

There are significant issues with such gender inequality, the gendered division of labor, and the value of labor. In other words, there is an argument that labor that earns money outside has value, but unpaid labor and care work within the home have no value because they don't produce money. I feel there is an awareness somewhere in society that prioritizes people going to work over people pushing strollers.

So because social space is constructed in a gendered way, seeking gender equality leads to a clash.

Also, it is said that housework time in Japan is low compared to the West. In the West, people do DIY, invite guests, and try to make their time at home richer. But in Japan, because the home is a space for the mother and child, people work hard to minimize housework. Nowadays, "time-saving techniques" are glorified in the media. There is a very strong discourse that cleaning should be time-saving, cooking should be time-saving, and housework should be kept to a minimum.

However, on the other hand, as mentioned earlier, childcare time is increasing. Just as it is called "Intensive Mothering" worldwide, there is a strong awareness of putting a lot of love and time into child-rearing and time into education. I think very complex issues are intertwined there.

Personally, I think that since the period of high economic growth, Japan has confined childcare too much within the family.

The word for house is written as "ie" but can be read as "uchi" (inside/our group). I think this is very Japanese. There is a notion somewhere in society that childcare is something to be done responsibly at home. I think the idea was formed that it is good for the child for the mother to be fully committed, as nuclear families in the high economic growth period began to do childcare alone and full-time housewives appeared, giving rise to the so-called "myth of motherhood."

Of course, this idea is now rejected, but the current trend of men's participation in childcare is also based on the idea that if the mother works in society, the father is the next one to do the childcare, right? No other options come up. Various systems seem to be designed based on the argument of "Please complete it within the home, between the two parents."

Originally, systems and culture should be reconstructed based on the idea of sharing childcare more with society. I think the argument has become that if we make the father bear what the mother used to bear, we can manage somehow. I fear that what used to drive mothers into a corner might now drive both parents into a corner.

I really feel that what Ms. Hirano said about driving both parents into a corner is true.

When looking at research on why it is difficult for men to take childcare leave, fathers are expected at the workplace to do the same volume and quality of work as before, with the assumption that a man should be able to do this much, and they feel they must be that way themselves. In such a situation, they manage their time somehow to devote time to childcare. For example, there are even situations where they return home once, put the child in the bath, and then go back to the workplace.

I feel that this kind of situation arises because society looks very lightly upon care and the people who provide it, as Ms. Fujita mentioned. People who prioritize work are evaluated at the workplace, and those values are brought into the home. There seems to be a mindset or a sense of norms in society that it is natural to do your job, and that managing the remaining time to do childcare is the correct way.

Reflecting on my own life, I feel that way too. Ms. Fujita spoke about the Western culture of inviting guests, and I also ideally want to have friends come over on weekends and have a fun time chatting. If someone comes from abroad, I want to welcome them to my home, but on the other hand, I end up thinking about who will do the preparation, and often think it's impossible this time too.

I feel that the priority of care, enjoying things as a family, and enriching private time has become very low within society.

Men are primarily expected to fulfill the breadwinner role, or rather, to support the household finances. This is also true in the United States. Because that expectation is so strong, they inevitably prioritize that first and use the remaining time for childcare and housework.

Conversely, even if men are actually doing childcare and housework, it is probably not perceived that way at the workplace. It was a long time ago when I was doing childcare, but since no one at the workplace thought I was doing such things, overtime work kept coming my way, and chores were assigned to me; it was incredibly tough.

On the other hand, even among university faculty, when women give birth, those around them do show consideration. But for men, I felt there was nothing like that. I think that is also related to the difficulty of taking childcare leave.

What I think while working as an occupational physician is that in Japan, work is often prioritized over self-care, not just care like child-rearing. This is true for companies, and it's true for the individuals themselves. People who are clearly suffering from mental health issues are thinking about work that isn't getting done.

That is how little financial value and priority is placed on care. I don't know if this is a recent thing or a national character, but in the end, I think it hasn't become a given that everyone cares for others and cares for themselves. Even if it's not childcare, there should be time to care for oneself or time to care for a partner.

I have an acquaintance who is a midwife but also runs a company. Since those around her are midwives who are in the position of being caregivers, even if they are busy executives, there is a sense that it's natural to care for each other. When someone has a child, they visit each other. They naturally do things like saying, "I'll watch the child at my place for a night, so go take a relaxing bath."

I thought that if caring for others simultaneously becomes caring for oneself, everyone's eyes would be more directed toward childcare and caring for those around them.

I see. By the way, Ms. Nakano, do you not use housework agency services much?

For housework assistance, since before my children were born, I have been using a place called the Silver Human Resources Center in Marugame City.

Elderly people have been coming about three times a week since I was a child, although the individuals have changed. Just when I gave birth to my second child, my mother injured her leg and was hospitalized for about two months. The most troublesome thing was that I had to look after my father. He is a very old-fashioned person, so he would say things like "bring me tea" or "cut the pickles."

After giving birth, I was exhausted but was told those things, which made me very irritated. At that time, it was truly helpful that the person from the Silver Human Resources Center came more often. Above all, the sense of security from having someone to talk to was a great emotional support after childbirth.

So it felt like you mainly had them do house cleaning?

Yes. Not cooking, but having them vacuum and things like that.

Ms. Nishimura, were you also using Silver Human Resources?

Yes. We have been asking them since our children were small.

Because you have many children. You have four.

Requesting the Silver Human Resources Center was reasonably priced in terms of cost, and there was a sense of security because people from the local neighborhood would come. I had them come about two days a week for cleaning, and sometimes to make dinner.

So there is a part where balancing became possible by using housework agency services effectively?

I think that was significant. There are times when you simply can't get home at the time you expected, so having dinner more or less ready when you return was something I was very grateful for.

Ms. Fujita, did you use those kinds of services?

I did. However, while I think having someone come over is a huge help if you have four children like Ms. Nishimura, we only have one child. When using Silver Human Resource Centers, local elderly people come over, which actually made me feel very self-conscious and apologetic. I also had to manage the time, so there were moments when I wondered if it was really worth it.

Ms. Hirano, have you ever used such services?

Actually, I've been using them since my second year as a working professional (laughs).

While living alone?

Yes. During my time in clinical practice, I worked an outrageous schedule, and I requested the service after seeing my housework fall into total ruin.

As an industrial physician, I sometimes recommend these services to households with children. The most important significance is not becoming isolated. If two people shut themselves in the house when they're feeling exhausted, it becomes a hopeless situation.

Bringing in housekeeping services is, of course, about reducing your own workload, but it also allows you to feel that you yourself are being cared for. When someone says, "I took care of this for you," regarding something you hadn't even noticed, it makes you feel like your life is being looked after, which is a little bit wonderful. Don't you think that's a factor?

So, using housekeeping services makes certain things possible. I didn't use them much myself, which is why my home fell into ruin (laughs).

While using services like housekeeping, aren't there also parts that people prefer not to outsource? For example, insisting on home-cooked meals—I imagine that's a common sentiment.

In our case, there's a supermarket very close by, and since my mother lives nearby, we insist on home-cooked meals in the sense that we exchange side dishes with her.

Is that because of health benefits or safety concerns?

I'm not that particular about it, but the fact that vegetables are so cheap is a big factor. In Kagawa, I buy them at places like markets, and they are so delicious you can eat them raw. I felt it would be a waste not to cook when such ingredients are available. It takes effort, but there are so many time-saving recipes on social media these days.

Many people do seem to want home-cooked food once they have children.

That depends on the person. Those who are particular might be very focused on organic food, or even put cabbage on their head when they have a fever (laughs).

Personally, I don't feel at all that I have to be the one making it. I'm perfectly fine with eating something prepared by a Silver Human Resource Center worker. Nowadays, I also make quite a bit of use of those services where a large batch of food is delivered on the weekend.

In our research, many regular employees working full-time talked about using services and cooking appliances to prepare dinner, whereas many non-regular employees and housewives wanted to make things from scratch as much as possible.

For non-regular employees, the reason they are in non-regular employment is often to care for their families, so if they just buy dinner, they feel it loses its meaning. Consequently, they cook as a matter of identity. I was also surprised to hear many full-time housewives say they don't want their husbands to do housework because if the husband does it, they feel they have nothing left to do.

That's the maternal gatekeeping hypothesis, isn't it?

Everyone is very particular about their value within the home. In the community of full-time housewives, home-cooking is taken for granted. So, even within Japan, there are significant differences depending on one's way of working and job.

On the other hand, in the Chinese-speaking world, takeout is very well-developed, and people even eat breakfast out. Also, in the US and UK, microwaveable ready-meals are extremely common. According to a paper I read recently, in the US, "cooking" itself has become synonymous with "heating." Cutting ingredients from scratch is considered elaborate cooking, not ordinary cooking.

Therefore, while things are being simplified, Japan may still have more mother's home-cooking compared to other countries. Nowadays, since ready-made clothes became abundant after the 60s, no one makes their own clothes anymore. In other countries, home cooking might become something you buy, just like clothes.

There's the question of how to evaluate that. Earlier, we discussed how the evaluation of care is low, but conversely, there are areas where the value of housework and childcare can be said to be high. In other words, people value home-cooked meals and find worth in serving them, so they prioritize that. However, there is naturally criticism that this makes balancing work and life difficult.

I myself am actually very particular about home-cooking; I almost never eat out. I don't buy many pre-made side dishes either and cook for myself. I became quite particular about it after my children were born. Perhaps that's why I couldn't balance things well.

Ultimately, to balance work and life, one must reduce the time spent on housework. Conversely, non-regular workers choose to prioritize housework and childcare and work in between, which is why they insist on home-cooking.

It's quite difficult to evaluate how housework and childcare should be. There is naturally the opinion that one should outsource cooking by using meal kits instead of making elaborate dishes. However, I also feel that it's not something people can always be so pragmatic about.

Values vary so much. My husband has a resistance to pre-made side dishes; he complains that if I buy them, he doesn't know where they were made, so I "remake" the pre-made dishes (laughs). It's fine if partners are looking in the same direction, but it's quite tough if one is organic-oriented and the other isn't at all. Especially once a child is born.

Something often mentioned in surveys during pregnancy is that it's actually men who tend to be more insistent on home-cooked food for children. Surveys show that women tend to be more realistic, opting for time-saving or ready-made options.

That might be because they only do it occasionally. In our surveys, we often heard opinions from men like, "My mother used to cook for me."

Like saying the miso soup tastes different, right?

I repeatedly hear stories of wives getting angry because their husbands say, "My mother made everything from scratch, so why aren't you doing it?" (laughs).

In Japan, the gendered division of labor was established around the period of high economic growth, and that's when the full-time housewife was born. Housework and childcare then became increasingly complex and sophisticated. There is a resistance to lowering the standards of housework and cooking once they have reached that level.

Is the choice now whether it's better to simplify the cooking and child-rearing that have become so complex, or to maintain those standards by using things like housekeeping services?

Regarding child-rearing, I feel it is becoming more compulsive as time goes on. There's the term "precious child"—a couple has only one child, perhaps born through fertility treatment when they finally reached 40. It's as if they feel everything will end if they fail there, so they are raising the child with a very narrow, almost compulsive perspective. That's why they are so particular.

Looking at it objectively, a single meal isn't going to change a child's life, yet they are extremely particular. Unless you're feeding them something they might choke on, there's almost no difference between an organic carrot and a regular carrot. My impression from listening to various stories is that people are becoming very compulsive, overlapping with those sophisticated standards.

In fact, as I mentioned earlier, time spent on childcare is steadily increasing. This is true for both university graduates and non-graduates, and for both dual-income and so-called full-time housewife households. Childcare time is lengthening across the board, and the trend of spending more time and money on children seems to be accelerating.

We mentioned "Intensive Mothering" earlier, and this trend is also very strong in the US. Recent research suggests that the idea of spending time and money on child-rearing has become common across social classes, regardless of whether one is a university graduate. However, it seems the university-educated group is better able to achieve this because they have more disposable income.

The discussion on measures against the declining birthrate is inevitably linked to today's theme. In Japan, because people spend so much time and money on child-rearing, there is a tendency to limit the number of children. Is this being discussed at the Children's Future Strategy Council?

There is talk of increasing the income of the younger generation, but taxes take a lot away, and take-home pay is significantly reduced. If income doesn't increase when someone wants a second child, they might find it difficult. In rural areas, I often hear people say they can't imagine having a child if the wife takes childcare leave and her income drops, especially if the father also takes leave.

At the Children's Future Strategy Council, there are voices calling for free higher education for the third child, but first, the decision to have one child, or the prerequisite of whether to get married or not, is important. The number of people who don't want to get married is increasing, isn't it? I think more emphasis should be placed on how to address that. I hope we can create a society where people feel like having children, and increase the wages of young people a bit more, so that a trend emerges where people feel they want to have children.

I imagine sociologists have a lot to say about the declining birthrate. Ms. Fujita, what are your thoughts?

All of East Asia is in a trend of declining birthrates.

South Korea and Taiwan have fertility rates below 1.0.

The decline is also progressing very rapidly in China. Various factors are influencing this within the process of modernization, and I feel that no matter what superficial measures are taken, the numbers won't increase that much. It would be different if it were only Japan that was seeing a decrease.

Exactly, birthrates are falling in all developed countries.

However, young students today hear so much in the media about how difficult child-rearing is, so it's certain they have a lot of anxiety about the future. Among them, the number of young people who don't want to have children because it seems so difficult is increasing. I think there's a question of what to do about that.

What do you think, Ms. Nishimura?

Various policies are being introduced one after another as measures against the declining birthrate. Policies such as extending the child allowance period until high school graduation, covering childbirth costs under insurance, and making higher education free for multi-child households are emerging. I feel that policy-based economic support will become more substantial in the future, and I believe that is necessary.

In addition, regarding childcare, a new system called the "Childcare for All System" has been created, allowing parents to leave their children at daycare for a certain number of hours per month even if they aren't working, and childcare leave is also being enhanced. It's good that various types of support are being announced. It's important that by continuing these measures indefinitely, young people can feel, even a little, that they might be able to have children.

Regarding childcare support, a study from a while ago categorized policies in European and Anglo-Saxon countries and quantified the level of support for three types of policies: care-related leave, flexible working, and childcare benefits. The paper examined how the happiness levels of parents and non-parents differed depending on the level of support.

What was interesting about the results was that the difference in happiness between parents and non-parents was smallest in societies where these policies were comprehensive as a package. Furthermore, the results showed that in societies where various policies are comprehensive as a package, both parents and non-parents are happy, which I found very suggestive.

The existence of policies as a package means that people raising children are supported in multiple ways. The fact that non-parents are also happy suggests that comprehensive childcare policies don't make non-parents feel like they are losing out, but rather make them happy too. I think it suggests such an effect.

I believe that social support for care can have an influence not only on those currently involved in care but on a much broader range of society as a whole.

In Japan, enhancing childcare policies might directly provide generous support to those currently raising children. However, from a broader perspective, I believe it leads to a sense that society as a whole is raising children and a belief that there is a system to help when one is in trouble, which will have a ripple effect.

That's an important point. Enhancing childcare support also increases the sense of happiness for those who don't raise children.

I think this is exactly what is happening now in women's health and productivity management. In companies that only unilaterally push for leave for childcare or childbirth, a strong sense of unfairness arises among men. In contrast, in companies that provide proper education and implement women's health management with support for balancing work and life, men also find it easier to take time off, their knowledge increases, and they become more mindful of care. Consequently, it seems that companies where men also find it easy to work are being created.

As Ms. Nakano mentioned, the unmarried rate is rising significantly. Nearly 30% of men and about 20% of women—slightly lower—will not marry in their lifetime. There is talk that enhancing childcare support creates social division, but according to what was just said, that is not the case.

The fundamental cause of the declining birthrate is overwhelmingly the decrease in the number of people getting married. The number of children born per couple has decreased slightly, but not significantly. This leads to a debate about how much enhancing childcare support will actually curb the declining birthrate.

I believe we should think about social systems on the premise that the birthrate will decline. Trying to force an improvement by encouraging "marriage hunting" is completely meaningless, and policies that prioritize "be fruitful and multiply" over individual happiness don't align at all with the sensibilities of young people.

While I think it's important to make it possible for those who want children to have them, rather than doing such misguided things, we should think about how each individual can live happily. Even if childcare support itself doesn't affect measures against the declining birthrate, I think we are still far from properly considering how children can live happily.

I think this also connects to the self-care Ms. Hirano mentioned. In Japan, men don't do self-care at all. Even if elderly men are unwell or lonely, they feel it's shameful to ask for help. I don't think the idea of caring for others can emerge in a society where such people exist. In that sense, if we become a society that supports each other in multiple ways, many things will change.

I actually think "fandom activities" (oshi-katsu) are a great form of self-care. Of course, they are caring for the person they support, but I think more than anything, it's self-care.

In industrial physician interviews, I often ask, "Are you doing any fandom activities?" I use it as a gauge—if they can no longer do it, I know things are getting bad. Being able to talk about one's devotion to something one loves is a form of care, and I think it fits Japanese culture very well. I believe child-rearing also has that element in a way.

The issue of self-care often comes up in sociology, particularly as a problem for the elderly. Nowadays, the number of men reaching old age unmarried is increasing, and it's often pointed out that such people tend to fall into self-neglect. In that sense, I feel this problem cannot be solved unless we equalize the gender roles in our society.

An important topic in recent years is childcare by men. Ms. Hirano, what are your thoughts on the current situation and future challenges?

Broadly speaking, I see it this way: if paternal leave in Northern Europe was taken because men wanted to participate in childcare, in Japan it was introduced to reduce the burden on women and raise the birthrate. And in Japan, because paternal leave and childcare were handed down as something given, it's currently creating contradictions. For many men, they are doing it because they are told to do it, and the point is when we can break out of that.

The younger generation says they want to take childcare leave, but is that because they truly want to do it, or because they think it's good to win such social rights? Most people probably can't imagine what child-rearing actually entails.

Since everyone is entering into childcare in that situation, we must create an environment where they can do it properly. I want people to think of child-rearing as something fun and interesting, but at the same time, it is also a fact that it places a heavy burden on the family.

While conveying these things, we need a society where child-rearing is a viable option. If we become a society where people actively seek to take childcare leave, then the timing of it will also become a matter of proactive choice. If we break down social awareness and education further, we'll end up talking about a lack of educational facilities and administrative support.

It has long been said that Japanese men's participation in housework and childcare is very low, but in terms of time, it has been increasing recently. According to a 2022 report by the Cabinet Office, when looking at households as a whole, men do about one-third of the housework, and childcare is also increasing.

In that sense, it may not have been a proactive choice, partly due to policy support, but the involvement in housework and childcare itself is increasing. However, the reality remains that women still bear the majority of the burden. Have you noticed an increase in fathers participating in parent-teacher association meetings at nurseries, kindergartens, or elementary schools?

It has increased significantly. My personal feeling is that a lot of fathers are attending events like entrance ceremonies. When I was a child, almost only mothers attended classroom observations, so I have the impression that the numbers are growing.

In those settings, are the fathers blending in well with the mothers' networks?

They are blending in. These fathers are regular office workers, but it feels like they are taking paid leave to come and see their child's big moment. Even at parent-teacher association meetings, the percentage of fathers is high.

That is quite a major change.

Recently, there was an event called Benesse's "Tamahiyo Family Park," which is probably the largest parenting event in Japan. I participated on the exhibitor side, and the percentage of men has been rising year by year; finally, I saw men who had invited their male friends to come along.

Until now, it was either only women or couples, but I think you can feel from such aspects that a very rapid transformation is taking place.

A while ago, many men probably felt embarrassed to go, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't.

I was doing childcare much earlier than all of you, so when I went to parent-teacher association meetings, I was usually the only man. That made me feel hesitant, and I couldn't get into the mothers' networks. Because of that, I didn't get any information at all, like which doctor was good or which Juku was good.

Ms. Fujita, do you often see men at parent-teacher association meetings?

They do come, but the increase in men is still mostly at weekend events or recreational activities.

Like soccer or camping.

I think they are still few and far between at parent-teacher association meetings on weekday afternoons. There is still a sense that school events are an obligation for women, but for men, they are something to participate in on Saturdays or Sundays when they have free time. I don't think that part has changed.

In elementary schools, there are groups called "Fathers' Associations." What is expected of those groups is, for one, dirty work like cleaning ditches or removing dirt from fans. Then there are typical events like camping, watermelon splitting, and fireworks.

In such events, there is an atmosphere where it's okay to let loose, and I sometimes think this is a gendered division of labor in the context of childcare. While it's okay not to worry about rules when playing with dad, mothers are still expected to take care of the child's daily needs. I sometimes feel that the current direction is one that further deepens the gendered division of labor in childcare settings.

On the other hand, I feel that a change in awareness among the younger generation is actually happening. In an NHK awareness survey of junior high and high school students in 2022, when asked how they would like to share childcare if they were to have children in the future, about 70% of both junior high and high school students answered that it would be best for both the mother and father to be involved in the same way.

In a similar survey ten years ago in 2012, only about half of the junior high and high school students answered that it was best for both the mother and father to be involved in childcare to the same extent. I think an increase of 20 percentage points in ten years is quite a significant change.

This might mean that young men have finally started to realize that it is strange for only one partner to bear the overwhelming burden of care when they have a partner. I think that is a big change.

I believe it will be necessary for society to support this change in awareness among the younger generation by encouraging it and creating ways of working where everyone can take on care in the same way.

Providing social support so that people with such awareness can realize it is exactly right, but one essential thing is to make working hours a little more flexible and shorter. If a spouse comes home at 8:00 PM, they cannot be involved if they have a preschooler or a child in the lower grades of elementary school.

Based on data from the Survey on Time Use and Leisure Activities, the Department of Health Policy at the National Center for Child Health and Development Research Centers and Institutes pointed out that to achieve the government's current goal of "2.5 hours of housework + childcare for men," work plus commuting must be kept within 9.5 hours.

If commuting takes 45 minutes one way, 9.5 hours means zero overtime. Unless it's around that level, it's impossible to do childcare properly. If the awareness is formed that childcare is almost impossible if you work overtime, especially until the child is of preschool age, then society might change.

Also, I think people who can work online have a bit more flexibility than others.

However, since the majority of people who can work from home online are white-collar university graduates, it might reflect something like a class gap. I feel it has become clear that flexibility, or rather, work hours that allow for a work-life balance, is more important than the length of working hours. I think it is important to have options within that.

Another thing is that those on the side of supporting childcare—childcare workers, medical professionals, and even obstetricians and gynecologists—talk only to the woman even when the couple comes together. This must change. I think we need to progress a bit further in terms of whether the support side and the system design side can operate on the major premise that men also do childcare.

Since parent-teacher association meetings are held on weekday afternoons, people with jobs cannot participate. It might be suggested to take paid leave, but there are many cases where it's not easy to do so. I would like to see changes such as shifting the time slightly to Saturdays or weekday nights.

I think it was very good to be able to talk about various things today. Thank you very much for your time.