Participant Profile
Nozomu Kawai
Professor, Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, University of TsukubaCompleted the Master's program at the Graduate School of Letters, Waseda University, and obtained a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University in the United States. Has been engaged in local excavations for over 35 years. Specializes in Egyptology and archaeology.
Nozomu Kawai
Professor, Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, University of TsukubaCompleted the Master's program at the Graduate School of Letters, Waseda University, and obtained a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University in the United States. Has been engaged in local excavations for over 35 years. Specializes in Egyptology and archaeology.
Keiko Tazawa
Other : Director of Research Department, Ancient Orient MuseumResearch Centers and Institutes Part-time Lecturer, The Keio Institute of Cultural and Linguistic StudiesObtained an MA and Ph.D. from the University of Liverpool in the United Kingdom. Specializes in ancient Egyptian religion and mythology.
Keiko Tazawa
Other : Director of Research Department, Ancient Orient MuseumResearch Centers and Institutes Part-time Lecturer, The Keio Institute of Cultural and Linguistic StudiesObtained an MA and Ph.D. from the University of Liverpool in the United Kingdom. Specializes in ancient Egyptian religion and mythology.
Kyoko Yamahana
Other : Professor, School of Cultural and Social Studies, Tokai UniversityFaculty of Letters Part-time LecturerMA from the Division of the Humanities, University of Chicago; Dissertation Doctor (Literature) from Tokai University. Specializes in ancient Egyptian archaeology, particularly the history of arts and crafts and vitreous materials.
Kyoko Yamahana
Other : Professor, School of Cultural and Social Studies, Tokai UniversityFaculty of Letters Part-time LecturerMA from the Division of the Humanities, University of Chicago; Dissertation Doctor (Literature) from Tokai University. Specializes in ancient Egyptian archaeology, particularly the history of arts and crafts and vitreous materials.
Encountering Ancient Egyptian Culture
This year marks the 100th anniversary of the discovery of Tutankhamun's mask in 1925, so I hope we can have an enjoyable conversation today. Ms. Yamahana, when did you first become interested in Egypt?
One of the triggers was going to America when I was 16. I attended a local school, but since I couldn't speak English at all at the time, I was put in a remedial class. There, I was given an assignment to choose just one book I liked from the library and write my impressions of it. At that moment, the first thing that caught my eye was a book on Tutankhamun.
So that's where your interest in Egypt began.
I was interested then, but not to the point of being obsessed. However, a little later, I ended up taking a summer course at Ohio State University. In the Western History curriculum, there was a course titled "The Battle of Actium." It had nothing to do with Tutankhamun, but it was the final, decisive naval battle between Cleopatra, Mark Antony, and Octavian.
The Western History professor for that course spoke about events from thousands of years ago as if they had happened yesterday. He was an incredibly skilled storyteller, and I was instantly drawn into the era of Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt.
It truly was a fateful encounter.
After that, before returning to Japan, I spent time in graduate school in Chicago. At that time, there were no experts around me involved in Cleopatra research, but I still wanted to do something related to Egypt, so I began researching Ancient Egypt and have continued to this day. Currently, my research focuses on archaeology, specifically arts and crafts such as glass.
I first encountered Ancient Egypt when I was in the first grade. At the time, there was a documentary program on NHK called "Legacy for the Future" that featured a special on Egypt, including the pyramids and Tutankhamun. Seeing that was one of the triggers.
I also loved hero shows and watched things like Ultraman, Kamen Rider, and Giant Robo. I suppose Tutankhamun looked like a hero to me as well. I mean, Giant Robo's face is basically Tutankhamun, isn't it? (laughs)
They look exactly alike.
I wondered what on earth it was. Being a child, I misunderstood and thought there might have been heroes in ancient civilizations. That's how I became interested.
So your feelings for heroes connected you to Ancient Egypt.
Later, by chance, my father bought me a book called "The Secret of King Tutankhamun" from Kodansha's Blue Bird Bunko at a bookstore near our house. I became completely obsessed and read it over and over again.
Right around that time, my mentor-to-be, Professor Sakuji Yoshimura, started appearing on TV. On Nippon TV's "Thursday Special," they had a weekly series where they built a 1/10th scale pyramid. I was glued to that too, and I'd mimic it by tying ropes to stones and pulling them with my friends. I was just a boy doing silly things like that, but I never really grew out of it, and after chasing Egypt all this time, this is the result. (laughs)
Listening to both of you, I was searching my own memories as well. One trigger for me was a reference book called "High Top" by Obunsha that was popular when I was in the sixth grade. On the page about Ancient Egypt, there was the Pyramid of Khufu, and the moment I saw it, I thought, "This is it!" That was the start of my interest in Egypt.
So the pyramids were the trigger.
But there was a stage before that. My elementary school library had a section called "The Afterlife You Don't Know," which had books with spirit photography and such. From there, I became interested in "human thoughts and feelings," and that blossomed when I was in the sixth grade.
So you had a strong interest in human thoughts and emotions?
Not in a negative sense, but I always had a question about what it means to leave one's thoughts in this world, or the feeling of thinking of someone, for better or worse. When I saw the Pyramid of Khufu in "High Top," I felt it was a condensation of human thoughts. That's when I was suddenly drawn to Egypt.
My specialty is Egyptian mythology and religion, but what I talk to my students about in class is Egyptian identity. Egyptian mythology is packed with various elements, including things similar to Mesopotamia or even Japan. By comparing them, we can begin to understand the identity of the Egyptians and how they viewed themselves.
Furthermore, Egypt has a vast amount of remaining materials such as crafts, ruins, artifacts, and architecture. I want to unravel the thoughts and feelings embedded in them; that is my current motivation.
The Real Thrill of Ancient Egyptian Culture
As Ms. Tazawa mentioned, one of the charms of Ancient Egyptian civilization is the sheer volume of materials. Therefore, by reading the texts, we can understand how the people of that time viewed the world.
In the case of Egyptology, learning the written language is mandatory even for those doing archaeology. In other regions, people who study texts and people who study material culture are often separated.
In Egyptology, there is a lot of overlap in those areas, isn't there?
There are many murals in Egypt, and the text and iconography depicted on the walls play a role in complementing each other to convey meaning. To understand their worldview and spirituality, you must understand the writing.
If you were to just use standard archaeological methods without knowing the writing, you would lose sight of the meaning.
You wouldn't be able to read the intentions of the people of that time.
Exactly. I think that's the charm or the fun of it.
There are some people involved in West Asian research who do not go to the sites. A teacher I know who runs a culture school was apparently asked by a student, "Professor, how many times have you been to the site?" and they said, "I was troubled because I've never been there even once." That left an impression on me. It seems there are quite a few people like that.
But with Egypt, you won't understand unless you go.
Going to the site is truly important.
Yes. In Egypt, the shapes of crafts, the shapes of ruins, the shapes of iconography—everything is a character. And everything has a hidden memory. So to know that, you really have to go to the site and see what kind of place it is. You need to think about what the ancient people were actually thinking in such a place.
What Kind of King Was Tutankhamun?
He is famous now, but Tutankhamun is a rather unique king, isn't he?
He was a king during the New Kingdom period, the most prosperous era of Ancient Egyptian civilization. His father was Akhenaten, who is known as the king who carried out a religious reform, changing Egypt's belief in a multitude of gods to a monotheism worshipping only a new sun god, Aten.
However, this was strictly a matter of royal authority believing in a single deity; the common people continued to worship the traditional gods, so it cannot be called a complete monotheism.
Tutankhamun was the Pharaoh (king) who appeared after his father did those revolutionary things, right?
However, partly because of that, the names of Tutankhamun and Akhenaten were erased from the King Lists. In the order of succession, there was Amenhotep III (Tutankhamun's grandfather), then his father Akhenaten, then Tutankhamun, followed by Horemheb.
But in the King List from the era of Ramesses II, who took the throne about 110 years after Tutankhamun, the names of the kings between Amenhotep III and Horemheb were erased. Because of that, Tutankhamun remained an unknown king for a long time.
He was obliterated from the records.
However, artifacts bearing Tutankhamun's name were found in 19th and 20th-century excavations. For example, Tutankhamun's name was inside the cartouche (royal name frame) on rings, so it was known that such a king existed, even if he wasn't on the King Lists.
It was after his tomb was found that he became famous, wasn't it?
With the discovery of his tomb, he became the most famous Pharaoh. Now, we have learned many things about the people surrounding Tutankhamun as well.
Mysteries Surrounding Tutankhamun
Many things are said about Tutankhamun's cause of death, aren't they? Like he had a blood disease.
It's also said he might have had malaria. But at that time, malaria was common, so it wasn't unusual.
We know from the mummy that he had a clubfoot, but that's genetic, right?
It's genetic. Recently, it's been suggested that he might have fallen while riding a chariot. It's said that a leg wound became infected, and his condition worsened.
Also, didn't the mummy have no heart?
That's right. Usually, it's left inside.
Especially for the royal family, they would have made the mummy according to strict rituals, so it's unlikely they removed it by mistake.
However, he died young at 19, didn't he? So I wonder if they were in a rush. What do you think about that?
Looking at the floor plan of Tutankhamun's tomb, it seems the tomb might not have been originally made for him. This is because there are clear signs that the tomb was expanded.
In other words, it makes more sense to think that something originally prepared for another noble was modified for Tutankhamun's burial.
Because it was a sudden death, the tomb became a rush job.
We know it was made very quickly because many spots were left on the murals. It's said that because they sealed the walls before the paint had fully dried, the humidity became extremely high, causing mold-like spots to develop.
It's the same as a bathroom. Because they put the lid on while there was still moisture, mold grew.
That's why, including Tutankhamun's, royal tombs are closed at certain times to prevent tourists from entering. This is because the breath and sweat of tourists make the inside damp, causing mold to grow or bacteria to multiply.
Since they were in such a hurry, it's possible the mummification process also became rushed. Maybe they removed the heart by mistake because they were in a hurry. But that seems unlikely.
The reason they left the heart is that the Egyptians of that time believed the heart, not the head, was what thought things and made words be spoken. We know today that the brain governs the body's movements, but the Egyptians believed the heart governed them, so it had to be left behind.
The fact that it's missing is a great mystery.
The Achievements of Howard Carter
When talking about Tutankhamun, the story of the discoverer, Howard Carter, is indispensable.
Of course. Regarding Tutankhamun, his existence was known through small artifacts, but around the time Carter arrived in the Valley of the Kings, an American businessman named Theodore Davis held the excavation rights, so Carter couldn't enter.
However, around the start of World War I, partly because his money was running out, Davis left, saying the Valley of the Kings had been completely excavated.
Among the tombs Davis excavated is the tomb of King Horemheb, whom I mentioned earlier. Davis published a book called "The Tombs of Harmhabi and Touatânkhamanou," which combined the excavation report of this tomb with a report on Tutankhamun's tomb.
The tomb of Tutankhamun he mentioned in this book was a shaft that contained items belonging to his close associate Ay in addition to the king's artifacts; it was so small it could hardly be called a tomb.
But Carter's thinking was different.
Yes. A short distance from the royal tomb, a shaft was found containing tools used to create Tutankhamun's mummy and items used in the funeral—what is known in technical terms as an 'embalming cache.'
In other words, since clear evidence of a funeral had been found, he believed it was only natural that a more magnificent tomb must exist. And just as the funds from his benefactor, Lord Carnarvon, were about to run out, he set his sights on the tomb of Ramesses VI.
It really was miraculous timing, wasn't it?
Yes. In front of the tomb of Ramesses VI, there were huts where workers used to rest. It was thought impossible that anyone would build a hut directly on top of a tomb, so the space beneath them had been overlooked. But Carter believed that Tutankhamun's tomb was exactly there. And that is how he found the royal tomb.
He really did well to find it. Originally, he wasn't an archaeologist, was he?
He was a painter. His father was a painter, and he learned how to draw from him. By chance, he was approached by Professor Percy Newberry of the University of Liverpool and was taken to Egypt at the age of 17.
At that time, photography technology wasn't developed like it is today, so they would take professional draftsmen to make copies. When investigating Egypt, various artifacts including wall paintings would emerge, so it was extremely important to record them beautifully.
So he was both a painter and a recorder.
Carter's records are incredibly precise. At excavation sites, we always record in field notes where things are and what shapes they have, but he drew plans so precise that I feel I could never draw them myself. It's astonishing.
They really are precise.
It would be impossible with just archaeological training. He drew with the eye of a painter. Not only that, he recorded everything in photographs and left diligent notes for every single item, which is why we are able to study so many artifacts today.
The Fascinating Mask of Tutankhamun
Tutankhamun himself is a mysterious figure, but his mask also holds many mysteries.
That's true. There are many mysteries, especially regarding the glass used in the mask. Glass first came to Egypt during the reign of a king about six generations before Tutankhamun; until then, glass existed in West Asia and around Mesopotamia, but not in Egypt.
Egypt was a latecomer regarding glass, so they didn't know how to make it. However, since Egypt was a gold-producing country, they exported gold to other regions and obtained glass in exchange.
So glass was that important.
There are several golden masks in Egyptian history, but among them, the craftsmanship of Tutankhamun's mask is of the highest standard.
The method of creation is called chasing, where gold is hammered and stretched, and it had a thickness of 1.5 to 3 millimeters. For comparison, the thickness of a 10-gram pure gold ingot circulating today is about 1.8 millimeters, so you can imagine it. Various decorations were applied onto that thick gold plate.
Glass is used in the headdress and the collar, and scientific analysis has identified it as glass with blue coloring agents added.
So various technologies were brought together to create a single mask.
Exactly. Also, the purity of the gold is different between the face and other parts. Apparently, it's different even just on the surface. The face part is not uniform, ranging from 18.4 to 23.2 karats, while the headdress is 23.5 karats, which means it's almost pure gold.
The mask we see in videos today is very beautiful, but it was a struggle when it was first discovered. The golden mask was attached to the mummy, but outside of that was a pure gold coffin weighing about 110 kilograms, and black resin had hardened between the mask and the coffin.
Carter worked hard to remove it cleanly using something like a scalpel, and it's said there were two buckets' worth in total.
That's mind-boggling work. Also, the large necklace and scepter that were originally attached when the mask was discovered have since come off.
Therefore, the impression of the mask we see now is quite different from the mask at the time of excavation. The mask at the time of excavation was equipped with all the belongings necessary for the king to journey to the afterlife, but the current mask has had its symbolic royal decorations removed.
It's like an icon created in the 20th century. Once excavated and exhibited, it is separated from its original context and takes on a life of its own as a new image, so that in people's minds, the golden mask equals Tutankhamun.
That's right. Once an image becomes established, it's hard to change.
Furthermore, the structure of Tutankhamun's mask is clearly visible when viewed from the inside. It has a structure where the front and back parts are joined right in the middle. This is called brazing, where a small amount of copper is mixed with gold to fuse them together. There are golden masks from other eras, but those were just hammered out from a single gold plate for the face and the front of the head. That's why I think Tutankhamun's mask is the most elaborate gold craftsmanship in ancient Egyptian history.
It really is a complex construction.
Regarding the production process, first the front and back parts of the mask are hammered out from gold plates, and then they are fused together by brazing. After that, the surface decorations are applied, but even today, the method of making the blue glass stripes on the headdress is not well understood. The headdress has a very complex shape, with some parts bent at sharp angles. However, the blue glass is connected without breaking at the corners.
There are several hypotheses, one of which is filling the grooves of the golden mask's headdress with glass powder and placing it in a kiln to raise the temperature. However, there is a problem here... the melting temperature of glass is higher than that of gold, so the gold would melt before the glass completely melts. Even if additives are used to lower the melting temperature of the glass, the liquefied glass would drip due to gravity and would not have a uniform thickness. Yet the blue glass on the mask is a uniform thickness of around 8 millimeters.
Another possibility is creating a plaster matching mold of the same size as the mask, filling the grooves of the headdress with powdered glass, and melting it in a kiln, but glass must be cooled slowly or it will crack, so it would take several weeks to complete.
Does it take that long?
After the glass inside the plaster mold has cooled sufficiently, the mold is broken to extract the glass. Since the extracted glass has a rough surface, it is polished until it shines, and then the finished glass decoration is attached to the golden mask—this is another theory. However, this is also practically impossible.
The Popularity of Tutankhamun in Japan
Tutankhamun is such a mysterious figure, and his popularity is high in Japan as well. In 1965, a Tutankhamun exhibition was held at three venues in Tokyo, Fukuoka, and Kyoto, with a total attendance of about 2.93 million. The Tutankhamun exhibition held in 2012 at the Ueno Royal Museum and the Osaka Tempozan Special Gallery also saw about 2.08 million visitors.
The "MYSTERY OF TUTANKHAMEN" exhibition currently being held in Yokohama Minato Mirai (until December 25) is also popular. Very sophisticated replicas are on display. They are so well made that I almost want one for myself (laughs).
He is popular worldwide, not just in Japan. I mean, a tomb like this is normally impossible. It's surprising enough that over 5,000 grave goods were stored there, but the fact that they remained almost unlooted is incredible. And these are things from about 3,400 years ago. Furthermore, the technology used is very advanced. I think the fact that there are so many unbelievable items is why interest never fades.
Since I study hieroglyphs, I feel there are actually very close similarities with Kanji culture, but for the general public, it might be because it's so far removed from their daily lives that they want to know more.
Also, when comparing eras, Japan was in the Jomon period at that time, so there might be a feeling of amazement that people could make such things back then.
There might be a kind of respect as well.
If Mesopotamia had produced such amazing excavated items, it would probably be just as popular. But there aren't many things like that. First of all, there isn't much color. Egypt is definitely glamorous, whether it's the wall paintings or anything else.
People are naturally drawn to gold, after all.
It's human instinct, so to speak.
Even the ornaments and jewelry are the kind of things that wouldn't look out of place in a jewelry shop today.
Evolving Exhibitions
Latest exhibitions are truly amazing. You never get tired of watching them.
I think that's not just Egypt, but a trend in modern museums. The main thing is inclusivity.
As so-called universal museums, they are striving for exhibition methods that can be understood by people with visual or hearing impairments.
They are becoming enjoyable for a wider range of people.
There is an app called UD Talk that automatically transcribes audio into text or reads out transcribed text. It's very convenient, and recently when I hold workshops, some people use UD Talk to listen to my explanations.
Also, it's common to make replicas of artifacts with 3D printers so that visually impaired people can touch them. Not unlike the mask story from earlier, you can tell by touch that there are no seams here, and so on. Since all those points are reproduced, I think we can communicate things in the future so that people can feel what has been shared even more deeply.
It seems we'll be able to enjoy a wider variety of exhibitions.
And having many artifacts is a big factor. Since Tutankhamun specifically has 5,000 items, I think Egyptian exhibitions have enormous potential for the future.
Speaking of 3D, I had the opportunity to study Tutankhamun's chariot. JICA provided technical cooperation, and the "Grand Egyptian Museum," one of the world's largest museums, is being built near the pyramids in Giza, Egypt (with a partial opening of permanent exhibitions from October 16, 2024). As part of that work, I was allowed to study the chariot.
That's a very valuable experience.
Originally, the goal was to perform a diagnosis for preservation and restoration in order to transfer it from the old archaeological museum. As an expert on Tutankhamun, I was allowed to participate when verifying the actual object.
Actually, there was something strange about this chariot; looking at the surface of the body, there were traces of something having been attached. Moreover, there were not just traces, but also parts with holes.
That's intriguing.
Actually, a sunshade had been found along with the chariot, but Carter, who excavated it, said it was something used as a sunshade when Tutankhamun took a break somewhere and was unrelated to the chariot.
However, what bothered me was that this sunshade was trapezoidal when viewed from directly above. If it were a sunshade for resting, it wouldn't need to be trapezoidal.
True.
Why is this trapezoidal? To prove this mystery, I went to the Griffith Institute at the University of Oxford and was shown the actual original drawings made by Carter. There were various detailed notes, and upon checking, I found that the connection between the chariot and the sunshade was indeed very strong.
When the chariot and the sunshade body were aligned and viewed from above, it turned out that the poles attached to the sunshade fit exactly into the positions of the holes. Based on this, I explained it to the head of the Grand Egyptian Museum at the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities of Egypt, and I was finally allowed to enter the glass case to examine and prove it.
That's an amazing interaction.
However, due to the condition of the chariot, it was not possible to actually attach it to its original place.
So what we did was enlist the help of Professor Takeshi Oishi's team, who specializes in computer vision at the Institute of Industrial Science, the University of Tokyo, to perform 3D scanning. Based on that data, they joined them in virtual reality. As a result, it was found that the two fit perfectly. In other words, what was thought to be a sunshade was actually the canopy of the chariot.
That's very interesting.
The Grand Egyptian Museum will have its true opening when the Tutankhamun gallery opens, which is scheduled for July 3rd this year. There is a room with a monitor inside, and they plan to screen this discovery there. I hope many people will see it.
How to Convey the Allure of Ancient Egyptian Culture
Exhibits are important, but I believe there is immense significance in preserving and restoring the objects and techniques of that time.
Once a technique is lost, it is incredibly difficult to recover. Through my own research, I strive to somehow preserve craft techniques that are on the verge of disappearing. For example, if there are no successors, I believe it is vital to preserve them using various recording media.
That is very true. At first glance, it feels as though we understand many things about ancient Egypt, but in reality, there is still so much we don't know.
Currently, I am conducting research at the Saqqara site, which is part of a World Heritage site. Even when looking at satellite imagery, only a tiny fraction—such as the pyramids and large mastabas (tombs)—has been investigated. In Japanese academia, as in other fields, we spent a certain period after the war absorbing and learning various information from the West. But from now on, I want to move beyond that; I want to go to the sites ourselves, or if there are items in museum collections, I want to actually use my own hands to observe them closely and fill in the pieces that have remained missing until now.
This isn't just about my own interests; I want the younger generation to actually experience the fact that the mysteries of ancient Egypt can be unraveled.
Dr. Tazawa and I are the same age, and there are many Egyptologists of our generation in Japan, but I really want to pass this excitement on to the next generation. In reality, it is quite difficult, but I want to continue my research while educating the next generation. I hope to engage in various activities that serve as a catalyst for that.
I am at a museum rather than a university. I have goals as a museum professional for the future, as well as hopes as an individual researcher.
As a museum professional, I simply want to broaden the base of Egyptology. When we hold Egyptian workshops at the museum, we receive a huge number of applications. So, even if it's not Tutankhamun, there are many people who are interested, and especially with hieroglyphs, there are various educational materials available now, so children come to visit us as well.
We have two types of workshop courses—one for adults and one for children—but nowadays, some children are even capable of joining the adult course.
That's amazing.
As we broaden their interest like that, middle and high school students also come. When those children further expand their interests, they always ask, "Where is the best place to study Egyptology in Japan?" Back when we were students, there was a tendency to be focused solely on archaeology, but now there are people who are well-versed in various fields.
I hope to guide as many children as possible into those fields and nurture the next generation.
Without a new generation, research won't progress, after all.
As a researcher, I want to interpret the world of the ancient Egyptians as someone who has internalized Japanese culture. As Dr. Kawai mentioned, especially when we were students, Egyptology was an imported discipline.
Without fear of being misunderstood, it had become a field of study within a certain Christian framework. However, ancient Egypt predates Christianity. Therefore, once we remove that Christian bias, it is perfectly fine to think about it from the perspective of, for example, the Japanese concept of the "eight million gods," the world of the "Kojiki," or the world of Shinto.
Certainly. That's exactly right.
What left an impression on me was when I was studying abroad in Liverpool, England; we covered ancestor worship in one of the classes. Actually, ancient Egypt also had ancestor worship, and it is said that in the craftsmen's housing complex in Deir el-Medina—which could be called the world's oldest company housing—they would place busts of their ancestors upon entering the front door.
When the professor explained that in the class in Liverpool, it seemed to be a fresh concept for the local people. From the British perspective, there is a sense that when a person dies, that is the end; of course, they feel a sense of longing for their parents or siblings, but it isn't "worship."
That's interesting. It's truly a cultural difference.
It's not a matter of which is better or worse, but I want to break away from imported scholarship and interpret things with a Japanese sensibility. My goal as a researcher is to try interpreting ancient Egyptian culture through a Japanese lens.
In today's environment, that might be possible. In the past, we were really fumbling in the dark and had no choice but to teach ourselves.
My start with hieroglyphs was also self-taught. In the past, everyone used hand-copied versions of hieroglyph lessons, but nowadays, you can find high-resolution photos and say, "This is it." I think it's a truly wonderful era.
Nowadays, the opportunity to study is expanding regardless of age. I would be happy if this roundtable discussion could serve as one of the catalysts for that.
(Recorded on April 11, 2025, at Keio University Mita Campus)
*Affiliations and titles are as of the time this magazine was published.