Lured by Vietnam

私は慶應の経済学部でフランスの植民地統治を研究しています。ベトナム、ラオス、カンボジアからなるインドシナ連邦の中でもフランスにとって一番重要なのはベトナムでした。私の研究はおもにフランス側の視点ですが、ベトナム側の視点を知るためにも資料調査や現地視察をしによく行きます。

初めてベトナムに行ったのは1995年です。ドイモイによって国が市場経済導入路線に転換し、観光客を受け入れ始めた頃でした。私は修士課程への進学を決め、研究テーマを模索している最中だったのですが、フランス人観光客がとても多かった記憶があります。まだ渡航自体がそれほど多くない時代で、フランス人が観光客の7割を占めていました。ベトナム戦争の傷跡が生々しく、国もまだ貧しい時代でしたが、リタイアしたフランス人たちがかつての植民地で楽しそうにしているのを見て、どういう心理なんだろうと不思議に思ったものでした。

フランスや米国、中国との戦争を経験し、植民地支配が長かったこの国で、フランスがどういう植民地支配をしていたのかを研究してみようと思ったのが始まりです。最近は2017、8年に1年半ほどハノイに滞在しました。

私は大学を卒業後、日本で雑誌の編集に携わっていました。2015年からシンガポールで働くことになりますが、その前の2012年に初めてベトナムに行きました。その時にホーチミン市でひどいぼったくりに遭ったのですが（笑）、それも含めて体験したことがない文化に触れ、とても新鮮に感じました。

シンガポールからニュージーランドに移動する際にフリーライターに転身し、その後は東南アジアや日本など場所を決めずに活動していました。しかし、パソコンと通信環境があればどこでも働けることから、どうせなら自分の好きな国で仕事をしようと思い立ち、ハノイに住むことにしました。2018年～20年はハノイでライターをしながら、現地の人材会社で日本語を教えたりもしていました。

私はハノイ貿易大学を卒業後、2カ月ほど現地の日本の企業でインターンシップをしていました。その後、先輩とともに起業したのですが上手くいかず、次のステップとして日本留学を決めました。当時はハノイに日本のIT企業が増え始め、日本に留学することで貢献できることがあると思ったのです。

2018年に日本政府から奨学金をもらうことができ、2019年に慶應義塾大学大学院メディアデザイン研究科（KMD）の修士課程に入りました。2021年に修了し、今は日本の企業で働いています。

ベトナムが好きな人の中には、ハノイが好きという人もいれば、ホーチミン市が好きという人もいますね。グェンさんはハノイのご出身だそうですが、ホーチミン市とは随分異なるのでしょうか。

まず天候が違います。ホーチミン市は一年中暖かいのに比べ、ハノイは日本のように四季があります。

ハノイの冬は寒いですよね。

そうですね。冬はダウンジャケットが必要な時期もあるほどです。

体感的には気温よりも寒く感じます。湿気のせいでしょうか。

ハノイは湿気があり風が強い地域ですが、建物の風通しが良いのも寒い原因かもしれません。

最低気温が10℃を下回ると小学校が休みになるそうですね。

いや、8℃です（笑）。

寒いと学校に行かなくていいというのもめずらしいですね（笑）。

暖房設備がないからでしょうか。

そうですね。ですが、今年はエルニーニョ現象の影響で暖かいようです。最近帰った時には25℃もありました。

ハノイとホーチミン市はライフスタイルに対する考え方も違います。ハノイの人たちは子どもの教育や家を買うためなどにお金を貯めますが、ホーチミン市の人たちはサラリーが低くても外食や買い物が好き。新しいものにお金を使います。

両方の都市に行くと確かにそれが実感できますね。資本主義の発達度合いも違う。東京で暮らしていて言うのもなんですが、ホーチミン市は大都会で少し疲れます。

そうですね。他方のハノイは政府機関や学術的な拠点が多く、京都や奈良に近いイメージです。

ホーチミン市に比べるとハノイは規模が小さいですよね。こぢんまりとしていて移動しやすい。植民地時代の古い建物が残っていて街の雰囲気も良いですね。

ハノイ中心部にはホアンキエム湖があり、このエリアが旧市街です。36本の通りがあり、それぞれの通りでさまざまな特産品が売られています。ハノイに観光で訪れる人たちの多くはこのエリアに滞在し、昔の街の雰囲気を味わえます。

ベトナム戦争が終結してしばらくの間は国がまだ貧しく、建物を積極的に残すというよりもあるものを使う感じだったと思いますが、今は残すことで観光資源になるのをベトナムの人たちはよく理解しています。フランス人が建てたものだけでなく、ベトナム人建築家による建物もあって街を歩くのがとても楽しい。

私の家はハノイ旧市街から少し離れたエリアにあります。日本で言う社員寮のような団地に、祖父母やその会社の人たちと一緒に暮らしていました。ですので周りに住んでいる人のこともよく知っていましたし、人間関係も良かった。東京とは対照的な環境です。

私も日本語の授業後には生徒たちとともにお茶会をしたりしていました。日本人コミュニティがホアンキエム湖周辺で清掃のボランティア活動をする時には、地元の若者たちも積極的に参加していました。

日本語を習いに来る人たちはとても気さくで、授業が終わった後にはごはんを食べにいろいろな店に連れて行ってもらいました。私1人で注文するのはためらわれるような、チュンビロンというアヒルの卵を出してくれる屋台に行ったり。近所にあるアパートの管理人のおじさんとも毎日顔を合わせるうちに仲良くなり、「お茶飲んで行きなよ」と招き入れられることもありました。ベトナムの人たちは人情に厚いイメージがありますね。

ベトナムで日本語を学ぶ層はまだ一定数いるのですか。

私が教えていたクラスには、日本でITエンジニアとして働きたい人たちが集まっていました。年齢層はさまざまでしたが、かなり多かったです。

留学をする人たちの間では今、米国やヨーロッパが人気で、日本に来てくれる学生が少し減っているように思います。

ベトナムでは最近、中学校や高校にも日本語のクラスがあり、日本語を勉強する人は増えています。でも日本語は難しい。少し勉強しただけでは留学できるほどにはなりません。

グェンさんは最初から日本に留学するつもりだったのですか?

そうですね。日本に来た時は全然日本語が話せませんでしたが、最初に2カ月ほど勤めた日本企業の経営者が慶應の博士課程を出ていました。彼と話すうちに尊敬するようになり、私もそういう人になりたいと思い、慶應を選びました。

もう一つは、ベトナムに日本企業が増えており、日本の文化やユーザーセントリック（ユーザー中心志向）を学びたいと思ったことも大きいです。日本のユーザーセントリックはよく知られており、私も起業した時にいろいろな本を読んで学びました。日本でそういうサービスやプロダクトを学びたかったのです。

日本語は難しいですよね。私の生徒たちも苦戦していました。

私は日本に来てから1年間勉強しましたが、大学院の入学資格がJLPT（日本語能力試験）のN1レベルで、1年勉強するだけでは足りません。そこでKMDの、英語で提供される授業のみで学位が取得できるプログラムに進むことにしました。今仕事で使うのはほぼ英語ですが、日本語の勉強も続けています。

一方でベトナム語を習得するのも大変です。とくに発音がとても難しい。私は今も全然話せません。

私もです。学生時代から勉強していますが、全然話せるようにならない。やっぱり発音ですね。

カフェで「スアチュアカフェ（ヨーグルトコーヒー）」を注文したいのに、何度言い直しても聞き取ってもらえませんでした。

日本語の「ん」も、ベトナムにはいろいろな「ん」があります。「NH」と「MH」と「NG」があり、どの「ん」かと訊かれ、1つじゃないの?　と驚きました（笑）。

ベトナム語には声調が6種類もあるんです。ですが、日本語の「はし」も「橋」や「端」、「箸」があるように、ひらがなでは発音の区別ができません。その点、ベトナム語は書かれている文字をそのまま読むことができます。

今はもう使わなくなりましたが、ベトナムでも昔、漢字が使われていましたよね。グェンさんも漢字を学んでいると思いますが、かつてベトナムで使われていた漢字がわかるといったことはありますか?

日本語の漢字の中にもベトナム語と似た発音のものがあります。漢字によってはそれを読むとベトナム語でその言葉が出てくることもあります。

ベトナムの食文化は北と南で99パーセント違います。ハノイとホーチミン市だけでなく、中部のダナンも材料は似ていますが、料理としては他のものになります。同じ名前の料理もありません。もちろん、フォーやバインミー（ベトナム風サンドウィッチ）のように有名なものはどこでもありますが。

南部のほうが甘い味付けだと聞いたことがありますが、いかがですか?

そうですね。ホーチミン市のほうでは調味料として砂糖をよく使います。

フォーの味も南と北で全然違いますよね。

はい。フォーはたぶん南部のほうが甘いです。ホーチミン市のフォーは野菜と一緒に食べたりもします。ハノイは野菜を入れると言ってもネギくらい。

お肉は入りますよね。

はい、牛肉がメインです。鶏肉の店もありますが、牛肉で出すお店のほうが多いです。店ごとに作り方が決まっているのがベトナム料理の特徴かもしれません。牛肉のお店が鶏肉のフォーを出すことは滅多にありません。

フォーと言えば、ハノイの名店フォーティンが池袋にオープンしました。おそらくハノイで一番有名な牛肉のフォーのお店ですよね。

そうですね。フォーティンの特徴は牛肉を炒めるところです。フォーの肉は茹でるのが普通で、炒めるのは珍しいです。

グェンさんはバインミーもよく食べていたのですか?

よく食べていました。バインミーはベトナム人のファストフードですから。皆、朝の出勤途中にバイクで屋台に乗りつけてささっと買って行きます。100円とか150円くらい。私は家のそばに店を出しているおばさんからよく買っていました。私の母が売っていたこともあります。

そうなんですね。

でも、朝3時に起きて支度をしないといけないのが大変だと言っていました。今は別の仕事をしています。

バインミーはいろいろな種類がありますよね。卵とかパテとか、好きな具材をコレとコレと言ってその場で挟んでもらうのが楽しいです。お願いすればアレンジもしてくれるし、どれも美味しい。

そうですね。私はフランスに留学中、フランスパンを食べ飽きて見たくもないほどだったので、最初はどうしてベトナムに来てまでフランスパンを食べなきゃいけないのかと思っていましたが、ベトナムのパンは美味しいです。

バインミーのパンはフランスパンのようで、嚙んでみるとサクサクして柔らかい。バインミーのパンは、このためにつくられるものなのでしょうか。

そうです。フランスパンに似ていますが、具材を挟みやすいように中が空洞になっています。

なるほど!

Banh mi is popular among Japanese people now, too. I've heard that French bread is too hard, so it's actually quite difficult to make the specific type of bread used for banh mi.

What about rice? During World War II, France had people mobilized from Vietnam to grow rice in an area called Camargue. For Vietnam, a major rice-producing nation, growing rice must have been second nature. However, most of them returned to Vietnam after the war, and the few who remained in France are no longer growing rice today.

Was there a need for rice in France as well?

It seems they had been trying to grow it since the end of the 19th century, but they couldn't produce good rice and the practice had completely died out. It is said that when they brought in Vietnamese people to grow it, they were able to produce proper rice, which led to the revival of the rice-growing region. Today, high-quality rice known as delicious Camargue rice is produced there.

In contrast to Japanese rice, which is sticky and easy to eat, Vietnamese rice is long and dry, making it suitable for fried rice. In Vietnam, it's popular to eat it with soup poured over it, similar to ochazuke. But in Japan, people usually eat rice and soup separately, don't they?

Vietnamese noodles are also delicious. I got hooked on Cha Ca in Hanoi and ate it all the time. You can't find that in Japan.

You certainly don't see it often.

It's a Hanoi specialty. Chunks of fish seasoned with turmeric are stir-fried in a generous amount of oil with herbs like dill and green onions. Eating that with Nuoc Mam (fish sauce) and noodles is incredibly delicious. I even tried making it myself after returning to Japan. Is the fish used for Cha Ca a freshwater fish?

I believe it's snakehead fish. I love Cha Ca too.

I got hooked on Banh Da Cua, a specialty of a port town called Hai Phong, east of Hanoi. It's similar to Pho, but you eat brown flat noodles mixed with sugarcane in a soup rich with crab broth. In Japanese terms, it's like crab ramen. It has toppings like fish cakes and is refreshing rather than greasy. It was so delicious.

Banh Da Cua hasn't really made it to Japan either, has it?

That's true.

There are truly many different types of noodle dishes in Vietnam.

There are also many local beers. I've tried them in various regions, and it's interesting how each has its own characteristics. Perhaps because Hanoi has a cold season, the flavor is quite strong, whereas 333 (Ba Ba Ba) from Ho Chi Minh City is lighter in comparison.

Dalat wine, produced in Dalat in the south-central region, has also become very good.

Oh, yes. I recently drank it for the first time and thought it was delicious. Was it not like that in the past?

It wasn't good at all (laughs). But the quality of Vietnamese wine has improved dramatically over the last 20 years.

Mr. Nguyen, what is the taste of home for you?

When I was in Hanoi, I often ate sweet and sour braised spare ribs. Vietnam has a dish similar to Japanese braised pork belly (kakuni), but we use Nuoc Mam for seasoning. Just like soy sauce and Nuoc Mam, Japan and Vietnam have similar seasonings.

Is Nuoc Mam used in cooking in both the North and the South?

Yes. Like soy sauce, it's used as a dipping sauce for many things.

Speaking of Vietnamese food culture, we eat a lot of vegetables. There's a huge variety and they are all cheap; we serve boiled vegetables on a large plate for everyone to share.

As for fish, in Vietnam, it's freshwater fish. I think Japan has a lot of seafood, but in Hanoi especially, freshwater fish is cheaper and more available because the sea is far away.

Is there an influence from Chinese cuisine? I imagine there was a long period under Chinese influence.

I think the influence of Chinese cuisine is minimal. France or Thailand should be closer. Chinese cooking uses many seasonings, but Vietnam isn't like that. Like Japan, we eat by bringing out the freshness of the ingredients. It's simple, but we use a lot of herbs and aromatics.

Vietnamese cuisine certainly is skillful in its use of herbs.

Herbs are abundant in flavor, color, and variety. If you go to the market, they sell a lot of them, and they are cheaper and tastier than at the supermarket. Also, the chickens sold at the market are so-called free-range, so they have a good texture.

The good thing about the market is that you can buy with peace of mind. My mother knows many people working at the market, so the quality of the ingredients is always reliable.

At your home, Mr. Nguyen, did you mostly eat at home? Or at street stalls?

Usually, I ate at home. Of course, I sometimes ate at street stalls. Stalls are cheap, so they are popular with people living alone.

Street stalls are truly cheap and delicious. I like the stalls where various side dishes are lined up.

That's Com Binh Dan.

Right. When I was in Hanoi, I hardly cooked for myself and ate various things at Com Binh Dan. Binh Dan means something like "commoner," so in Japanese terms, it means a "popular eatery" or "diner."

I used Com Binh Dan often too. Like with banh mi, it was fun to point at this and that and have it served with rice.

By the way, don't you feel the high cost of living every time you go lately? I was surprised at how much prices have risen in the last 20 years. When I first went to Vietnam, the largest unit of currency was 50,000 dong, but now it's 500,000 dong (about 3,000 yen). I suppose salary levels have also risen, but a tenfold increase is surprising.

Recently, the number of cars in Hanoi has increased. That said, the number of motorcycles hasn't decreased either, so the traffic in the city is incredible. I heard that the Vietnamese conglomerate Vingroup started producing and selling cars, making it easier for Vietnamese people to drive. Along with this, traffic lights have begun to be installed, and both motorcycles and cars have started stopping properly. Such changes seem good, but also a bit sad.

So, crossing the street hasn't been a life-threatening endeavor lately (laughs).

That's right. But in areas a bit away from the center, the old-fashioned feel remains. After all, crossing while looking left and right and weaving through motorcycles is the first hurdle for surviving in Hanoi (laughs).

I used to use local buses and motorcycle taxis to get around the city. I used motorcycle taxis often because they feel more open than regular taxis.

What was impressive in Hanoi was being offered a seat on a local bus. I was confused, thinking I wasn't that old yet. Then I realized that since there are many young students among the passengers, it's a relative matter, and now I gratefully accept the seat (laughs).

I've been offered a seat too. All the young people are very smooth about giving up their seats.

I often used Grab taxis (ride-sharing taxis), which were widespread even before COVID. Have you ever used them, Ms. Nagashima?

The ride-sharing app Grab is convenient, isn't it? I also used motorcycle taxis through Grab often.

Japanese taxis haven't changed much, but mobility in Vietnam is changing rapidly. Until Grab became popular, people would ask a neighbor or someone nearby to take them where they wanted to go. Recently, not only apps like Grab, but also electric motorcycles with quiet engine sounds have been released by Vingroup.

Grab drivers are driving really nice cars; it feels like things are starting to reverse compared to Japan. When I was a student, there was still a large gap in economic levels, and even when eating with Vietnamese people, it felt like the Japanese person would treat them, but now it's the opposite. I was treated to many meals there. In Vietnam, even when eating with people of the same age, everyone has a culture of treating others, don't they?

That's right.

They aren't stingy like splitting the bill. In those moments, I feel the contrast between a sinking Japan and a developing Vietnam (laughs).

Vietnam is so vibrant; every time I go, I feel the difference from Japan and always feel energized.

Mr. Nguyen, don't you feel sad being in Japan? (laughs)

Not at all (laughs). However, I feel it's harder to become close friends with Japanese people compared to Vietnamese people. Japanese people don't talk much about their private lives.

That point is different. Vietnamese people ask personal questions right away. Whether you're married, if you have children, how old you are, and how much your income is.

They really step in, don't they? (laughs)

Yes, it's like, "Are you really asking that out of the blue?" (laughs).

Of course, asking too many private things isn't good, but it also makes it easier to become friends.

I see. Such topics serve as a catalyst for the conversation to expand in various ways.

The conversation inevitably centers on Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, but in the north, there is a mountainous region called Sapa, and the terraced rice fields in this area are very beautiful. Many mountain ethnic groups live in Sapa, and it felt like a slightly different cultural sphere. There are many different ethnic groups in Vietnam, aren't there? Diverse groups make up about 10% of the population. These people have different costumes and different textiles depending on the ethnic group. Sapa was a very nice place.

The most urban city besides Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi is Da Nang in the central region. Facing the East Vietnam Sea (South China Sea), the population isn't very large, and there are few motorcycles, so it's safe. Recently, the number of Japanese IT companies and factories has been increasing, and there are direct flights. I think many Japanese people travel to Da Nang, but it's also a popular city for Vietnamese people.

Nha Trang and Hoi An, which has a World Heritage site, are popular with Vietnamese tourists. In Japan, the ruins of Hue are also popular, but because it's hot and rainy, people usually only spend a day or two there on a trip.

I recently went to Con Dao. This was originally a penal colony island and was called Poulo Condore in French during the colonial era. The remains of the former Con Dao Prison are still there.

"Dao" means "island." In Japan, it is also called Con Dao Island.

I heard it has recently become a tourist destination, so I felt I had to go. While lovely hotels have been built on the island, it has a history where many people were killed. The island is windy and the waves are rough. It is not a place you can easily escape from. I felt there was a good reason why it was turned into a prison island.

This island is home to the grave of Vo Thi Sau, who was killed at the age of 19 for resisting the French during the Indochina War. Vo Thi Sau is a woman often called the Joan of Arc of Vietnam, and Vietnamese people still visit to pay their respects today. Flowers are always offered at her grave, and I believe it is a very important place for Vietnamese history.

I think the number of people like you, Ms. Nguyen, who come to Japan to gain business experience and then return home to start their own businesses, is increasing year by year. Are you also considering such a venture in the future?

There are people like that, but many people around me want to work in the country where they studied. I don't want to go back yet either.

Why is that?

Traveling while studying Japanese is fun because there are so many new discoveries. Japan's transportation system is well-developed, making life very convenient. In Vietnam, even if you want to go to various places, moving around is inconvenient.

That may be true. You can travel between the north and south using the railways built during the French colonial era, but traveling between Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City takes a very long time. If you need to travel urgently, you would usually take a plane. I suppose that is one reason why everyone doesn't return immediately.

I think there are two types of people among those who return. One is those who want to live with their families. When you ask Vietnamese people what is most important to them, almost everyone answers "family." Everyone wants to live together with their family.

The other type is those who want to do business. It is true that there are many business opportunities in Vietnam right now. There are many young people, and it is probably easier to start a business in Vietnam than in Japan.

But Vietnam will likely face a rapidly aging society with a declining birthrate from now on. The Vietnamese government had introduced a two-child policy, but this has also been relaxed.

That's true. But even now, many families have two children. In Vietnam, if you say you don't want to have children, your family will strongly oppose it. Does that happen in Japan too?

I think it depends on the family, but that happens to some extent in Japan as well. However, it's not as strong as in Vietnam. Vietnamese people really do value family very much.

In Vietnam, we think a lot about time with family and work-life balance. When 6:00 p.m. comes, everyone finishes work and goes home. In Japan, if your boss is still there after 6:00, it's hard to leave, right? Vietnamese people don't really worry about that kind of thing.

I think that's a good thing. Japan is also gradually changing toward that way of thinking.

Vietnam is a Southeast Asian country, but what I feel is that it doesn't have the boundless cheerfulness of a place like Thailand. Rather, it is a bit more composed, closer to the Japanese concept of "wabi-sabi." I find its depth very attractive.

It might be due to the historical background, but I feel that Vietnamese people are resilient. I am very curious about how they perceive the former colonial era, so I ask various people, but they don't seem to dwell on it at all. They also love the French; in 2018, when I stayed there, France happened to win the World Cup, and everyone was overjoyed. I find it amazing that they are looking forward despite having experienced such hardships.

By the way, how do you think Vietnam will change in the future? 2023 was a milestone year marking 50 years since the establishment of diplomatic relations between Japan and Vietnam, and economic growth is now progressing at a tremendous pace. I think that as it gradually stabilizes, people will start looking at things other than material wealth. At that time, I am very interested to see how the people who fought and consistently won against major powers like France, the US, and China will mature.

Right now, they are pushing forward with economic development, putting the past wars aside, but I think they will eventually look back at the past. How the Vietnamese people face that is my interest for 10 or 20 years from now.

Two or three years ago, the most important thing for starting a cafe was the location, but now service and coffee quality are emphasized. Apps have made transportation more convenient, and the quality of electric motorbikes is improving. I am looking forward to seeing how these services and technologies develop in the future.

So right now, it's an era of charging forward energetically. What about the past? For example, Ms. Nguyen, do you ever ask your grandparents about the war?

Programs about those who were sacrificed in the war are one of the things often broadcast during the New Year, but there aren't many opportunities to talk about the war with my grandparents.

Why is that? They are the generation that experienced the war, aren't they?

They tell me to value food because they suffered from a lack of food during the war. But they don't talk about anything beyond that.

Is that because it is such a heavy experience?

I think so.

They probably don't want to talk about it much. But I hope people like you, Ms. Nguyen, will listen to their experiences of living through that era. Vietnamese people don't talk much about politics, but I think when people who received an education abroad like you return in 10 or 20 years, a time will come when you think about your own country.

I agree. Vietnam has a young average age, and tools like smartphones are widespread, especially among the younger generation, creating a situation where they can access various information themselves. When I hear "economic growth" or "national development," Japan's period of rapid economic growth comes to mind, but in the sense that they have information tools at hand, they might achieve a different form of development.

In addition to youth, how will the generation equipped with information tools develop the country in the future? At that time, how will energetic young generations like Ms. Nguyen think about the Vietnam of the past? I find it very interesting along with the development of the country.