Reading Tokujirō Obata

At the end of March 2022, the publication of the "Collected Works of Tokujirō Obata" (planned for 5 volumes) by Keio University and the Fukuzawa Yukichi Memorial Keio Gijuku Archives began.

Tokujirō Obata studied under Yukichi Fukuzawa from the end of the Tokugawa period. In 1890, he was appointed President of Keio University, and after Fukuzawa's death, he served as the head of the school. Outside the school, he held positions such as a member of the Tokyo Academy and the House of Peers, making significant contributions toward the civilization of Meiji Japan.

As is well known, Tokujirō Obata was a co-author of the first volume of "Gakumon no susume (An Encouragement of Learning)" along with Yukichi Fukuzawa.

However, in general, while many people may have heard the name Tokujirō Obata, they likely do not know much about what kind of person he was.

Therefore, today, while I serve as the moderator, I would like to discuss the personality and appeal of Tokujirō Obata with Mr. Masaru Kawasaki, one of the planners of the project, and Ms. Naoko Nishizawa, who is involved in editing the "Collected Works."

First, I would like to ask about Tokujirō Obata's life. Tokujirō Obata was born in Nakatsu in 1842 (Tenpo 13), correct?

Like Yukichi Fukuzawa, he was born as the son of a Nakatsu domain samurai. Since Fukuzawa was born in 1835, Obata was seven or eight years younger.

Fukuzawa came to Edo in 1858 (Ansei 5) and began teaching Dutch studies at a Juku located in the Nakatsu domain's middle residence. After having the opportunity to see America and Europe, he came to believe that the urgent task for Japan was the cultivation of human resources. Therefore, he wanted to invite talented young people to the Juku and create a place where they could learn together. At that time, the word "Shachu" was not yet used, but they were the kind of companions later referred to as the Keio Gijuku Shachu. He went to his hometown of Nakatsu to look for good talent, and Tokujirō Obata was one of five people scouted. This was in 1864 (Genji 1).

After coming to Edo and entering Fukuzawa's Juku, Obata assisted Fukuzawa and played a central role within Keio University for a long time.

Furthermore, through translations, he introduced Western civilization to Japan. He was also involved in the establishment of the Middle School Teacher Training Department at Tokyo Normal School in 1876, served as the President of Keio University, and was active as a member of the House of Peers, involved in various legislative bills.

I know nothing at all about Nakatsu, so I would like Ms. Nishizawa to tell me. The Obata family were high-ranking samurai (joshi) and the Fukuzawa family were low-ranking samurai (kashi), but how far apart were those ranks? Also, since Ryotaku Maeno was in the Nakatsu domain, Dutch studies flourished there from early on. To what extent did that academic influence affect Fukuzawa and Obata?

The fathers of Fukuzawa and Tokujirō Obata were both Nakatsu domain samurai, but their positions within the domain differed: the Fukuzawa family were low-ranking samurai with a stipend of 13 koku and rations for two people, while the Obata family were high-ranking samurai with 200 koku serving as tomoban (attendants).

Fukuzawa later stated in his 1877 work "Kyuhanjo" (Conditions in the Old Domain) that there was a very large disparity between high-ranking and low-ranking samurai in the Nakatsu domain, with different standards of living and even different books being read for education.

However, although Tokujirō Obata was born into the high-ranking samurai class, a conflict occurred among the high-ranking samurai during the Tenpo era, and at that time, Obata's father lost the struggle and was forced to retire. By the time Tokujirō was born, an adopted son had already succeeded the Obata family. Although he was born as the eldest son, as the name "Tokujirō" (implying a second son) suggests, he was treated as a second son and was not the heir.

Also, I think Fukuzawa created a certain image of Nakatsu in his "Autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi." For example, there is something like a register of domain samurai called a bungencho, written in order of rank. Even though they were low-ranking, the Fukuzawa family name appears in the front half of the entire register.

In other words, there were about three times as many low-ranking samurai as high-ranking ones, and there were many samurai with about the same 13 koku and rations for two as Fukuzawa. Therefore, while 200 koku can be said to be a very high rank, if you ask if there was a massive gap, there were many people of Fukuzawa's class, so I think the perception that Fukuzawa was at the very bottom and Obata was at the top is slightly off.

Regarding the tradition of Dutch studies in Nakatsu, Ryotaku Maeno was likely stationed in Edo and not in Nakatsu, so it is difficult to perceive a single continuous lineage of Dutch studies. However, among the successive domain lords, there were people with a strong interest in the Netherlands, known as "Ranpeki" (Dutch-maniacs). For example, the Japanese person who appears most frequently in Siebold's diary is the fifth lord, Masataka Okudaira (1781–1855). He was the son of Shigehide Shimazu of Satsuma, and he commissioned the creation of the first Dutch-Japanese dictionary, known as the Nakatsu Dictionary, as well as a Japanese-Dutch dictionary.

Yukichi Fukuzawa left Nakatsu for Nagasaki in 1854 (Kaei 7) and then opened a Dutch studies Juku within the Okudaira family's middle residence in Edo starting in 1858 (Ansei 5). Recent research points out that behind this was assistance from reformists within the Nakatsu domain, such as the domain scholar Shinjo Nomoto. Among them was Obata's father, Tokuzo. However, this is not mentioned in the "Autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi."

As Mr. Akio Noda has introduced before, Obata studied at the Juku of Shinjo Nomoto (Hakugan). The materials I am looking at include "Osuen Iko," written by Ikarimaro Watanabe, who attended the Nomoto Juku, which contains fragmentary descriptions of how Obata studied, and the diary of Hanpa Hachijo, who was also a fellow student.

Watanabe wrote that those who studied at the Nomoto Juku were called the Nomoto faction and were a group that created a unique atmosphere within the domain. I believe the network centered around the Nomoto Juku had a great influence on both Fukuzawa and Obata.

Looking at Hanpa Hachijo's diary, the Nomoto Juku network overlaps with people playing central roles in the domain's reforms, particularly in military system reforms. These were people aiming for reforms that included the introduction of Western armaments. I think his older brother Sannosuke was more involved, but Fukuzawa also had points of contact there. The key to where Obata first became conscious of Fukuzawa seems to lie around there.

It is a fact that in 1864 (Genji 1), Obata came to Edo with five other Nakatsu domain samurai, including his younger brother (Nisaburo [Jinzaburo]) and companions, and began learning English studies for the first time at Fukuzawa's place. However, I think it is quite doubtful to say he had no interest at all in Western studies or the West before then. It wasn't that Obata started Western studies simply because Fukuzawa told him to; he had an interest in Western studies, but he likely had hesitations about going to Edo.

At that time, Obata was over 20 years old and served as the head teacher at the domain school, Shinshukan. That was when Fukuzawa's invitation came, wasn't it?

Obata himself said that he heard Fukuzawa was in Nakatsu looking for someone to go to Edo and support him. However, due to personal circumstances, he did not want to go to Edo, so he avoided meeting Fukuzawa. But one day they met by chance, and that led to him going to Edo. He also mentioned that he had known Fukuzawa since childhood through his father Tokuzo's younger brother, Ikuzo Takeshita, and had read "Things Western (Seiyō Jijō)" even before it became a book.

Fukuzawa, hearing that Obata did not want to go, persuaded not only Obata but also his mother by saying that since he was a second son, he needed to find an adoptive family, and there were plenty of such families in Edo. Fukuzawa wrote that it was as if he had kidnapped him.

After coming to Edo, Obata learned English studies at Fukuzawa's Juku, and about three years later, he took a position as an assistant professor at the Kaiseijo. Mr. Kawasaki, you have researched the Bansho Shirabesho and the Kaiseijo; how did Obata acquire his English skills?

There are almost no official records regarding the educational content at the Kaiseijo. However, since Obata was praised as having "outstanding scholarship" and was immediately promoted to the rank of first-class professor, he must have already built up his strength at Fukuzawa's place. The people there had a mysterious ability to quickly acquire language skills (laughs). It's completely incomprehensible under the current education system. Even without foreign teachers, they all acquired proper language skills. This was true not only for English but also for German and French. It seems people of the Meiji era had a learning system that is unthinkable today, where they didn't study grammar or practice conversation, but simply read and understood original texts immediately.

Later on, even at the Sapporo Agricultural College, lectures were in English and they just read texts in turns. My guess is that at domain schools, everyone's foundation was the rote reading of Chinese classics, and they would naturally come to understand it through repeated reading. So, they probably applied that same method to English.

Another thing is that the relationship between the translation office where Fukuzawa was and the Kaiseijo is not well understood. Do we know anything from Fukuzawa's side?

The relationship between the translation office and the Kaiseijo is a theme I need to investigate further, but looking at why Obata started working at the Kaiseijo, it seems there was a massive increase in shogunal vassals wanting to learn English studies there, exceeding 150 people by October 1866 (Keio 2), and there was a shortage of teachers. While they were looking to hire several people from among the shogunal vassals, Obata was also considered a candidate. Although his status as a rear vassal (baishin) was an issue, his academic excellence and ability in "translated works" were highly valued, and he was hired. He rose from assistant professor to professor in one year.

His younger brother Nisaburo and another person, Kotaro Kobayashi of the Iyo-Matsuyama domain—one of the first people for whom enrollment records at Keio exist—also served at the Kaiseijo. Letters of thanks from their domain lords remain for these three, and it seems they were hired as representatives of their respective domains rather than coming directly from Fukuzawa's Juku.

This was after Obata passed away, but an anecdote in the "Jiji Shinpo" mentions that when the Obata brothers began teaching at the Kaiseijo, their explanations were so easy to understand that during breaks, a line of people asking questions would form only in front of the Obata brothers.

In 1866 (Keio 2), the year he worked at the Kaiseijo, Obata became the President of Keio University (this is different from his appointment as President in 1890). Furthermore, he is said to have been involved in drafting the "Keio Gijuku no Ki (Notes on Keio Gijuku)," which outlined the founding principles of Keio University. Does this mean that Fukuzawa's evaluation of Obata rose rapidly during this period?

The President at that time was like a leader of the students, which is different from the role of the President today. According to students who entered during the Keio era, Obata seems to have handled enrollment procedures and guidance. However, it is mysterious that he was also going to the Kaiseijo during that time. Kotaro Kobayashi and the Obata brothers were teaching at the Kaiseijo, and furthermore, in 1867 (Keio 3), Fukuzawa went to America again and was away for a period. What was happening inside the Juku during that time?

Presumably, Fukuzawa had high expectations for Obata even before he entered the Juku, and once he arrived, Obata lived up to those expectations with his activities.

In 1871 (Meiji 4), when the Nakatsu City School was established based on Fukuzawa's proposal, Obata became its first principal. Looking at your paper ("Tokujirō Obata: His Thought and Activities—Focusing on the Period up to the Establishment of Kojunsha," Konan Law Review, Vol. 57, No. 3/4, 2017), Obata also created a department called the Translated Books Department. What were his activities in Nakatsu like?

To go back a bit, according to Tatsui Baba, who entered the Juku in May 1866 (Keio 2), the teaching method at Keio University was completely incomplete; there were no fixed teachers, students taught each other, and lessons were bestowed by elders like a favor. They used an English grammar book of about 30 pages printed at the Kaiseijo, and he says they were taught this book first without even being taught the ABCs. Pronunciation was always wrong, but at the time, no one knew the correct pronunciation.

What Obata was thinking was not so much learning English as a language, but how everyone could accept new scholarship and new knowledge that had not been introduced before through English. When he established the Nakatsu City School, he likely thought that tackling difficult Western books directly would be hard for anyone without a certain foundation in Confucianism. To teach various people in a newly established school, he thought it necessary to create a Translated Books Department and have them learn from translated books where the content could be understood without learning the language. "Translated Books Department" means learning through books that have been translated.

Thus, Obata was an indispensable presence for Fukuzawa's activities. Why, then, has a collected works of Obata not been compiled until now?

Tatsui Baba and Eikichi Kamada have their complete works published, and even for people from the same hometown like Hikojiro Nakamigawa, Toyotaro Isomura, or Toyoji Wada, they all have fine biographies or collections of biographical materials gathered to create biographies, but until now, Obata did not even have that.

People of that era knew well the relationship where Obata was behind Fukuzawa and Fukuzawa was behind Obata. What is strange is that, despite this, Obata's presence is not very clear in the "Autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi."

The "Autobiography of Fukuzawa Yukichi" is not a simple autobiography; it focuses on what Fukuzawa wanted to say during that era, so things like his relationship with politics become the center.

Obata himself was someone who was constantly with him, his right-hand man, so perhaps he felt there was no need to specifically mention his name and discuss him. There are times when it's unclear if a statement is Fukuzawa's or Obata's, as if the two were one.

From Fukuzawa's perspective, Obata's arguments and his own were one, and if he spoke for himself, that was the end of it. So perhaps Obata was something within himself, not a person to be considered separately. I can't shake the feeling that they had become unified.

Since I believe the "Autobiography" is ultimately about self-assertion, I feel that is why he conversely does not bring Obata out in it.

Obata is often called "Fukuzawa's right-hand man," but one intention of releasing this collected works is to ask the question, "Is it enough to think of him merely as a right-hand man?"

One issue is that the first volume of "Gakumon no susume (An Encouragement of Learning)" is a co-authorship by Obata and Fukuzawa. It is said that this was because Obata had more influence in Nakatsu than Fukuzawa for releasing it to Nakatsu as the Nakatsu City School. However, I feel there is more to it than that. I want to place more importance on the meaning of the co-authorship.

Was it Fukuzawa or Obata who chose the famous opening words, "Heaven does not create one person above another"? Perhaps Obata chose it and Fukuzawa turned it into his own style of writing. This is nothing more than my own speculation, though.

Next, regarding the critique of the mixed residence of foreigners in the interior found in "An Outline of a Theory of Civilization," first Amane Nishi and Mamichi Tsuda published an argument promoting travel in the interior in "Meiroku Zasshi." In response, Fukuzawa wrote a rebuttal titled "Refuting Mr. Nishi's Theory" in "Meiroku Zasshi" and "Minkan Zasshi," arguing that foreigners should not be allowed to come to Japan and critiquing interior travel. After that, Obata continued by writing "A Critique of Interior Travel." Then, Fukuzawa incorporated what Obata wrote into "An Outline of a Theory of Civilization" instead of his own essay, saying that he had been taught by Obata.

Fukuzawa's writing style and Obata's are completely different. Fukuzawa's style can still be read easily today. However, Obata's is full of difficult words, many kanji that are no longer used, and frequent coined words with combinations not found in Chinese-Japanese dictionaries.

In Masao Maruyama's "Reading 'An Outline of a Theory of Civilization'," he says Obata is quoting what Fukuzawa wrote, but since Obata's style and Fukuzawa's style are different, I think that passage belongs to Obata. The core is the same, but Obata's is very specific, while Fukuzawa's is discussed from the perspective of a theory of civilization. In my image, given his ideological background, Fukuzawa did not oppose mixed residence in the interior. However, at that time, he had no choice but to argue against Nishi and others.

In the discussions of that time, such as at speech meetings during the Freedom and People's Rights period, especially political speech meetings, speakers would sometimes forcibly create opposing opinions against a debater to make the discussion work, regardless of their own thoughts. Regarding mixed residence in the interior, Obata clearly lists the problems. My reading is that Fukuzawa's way of picking a fight was to say that while those current conditions must be acknowledged, he was troubled because Mr. Nishi said nothing about them.

Also, while Wayland is associated with Fukuzawa, it was Obata who bought the original book by Wayland. Obata had an excellent eye for English books. I suspect a relationship existed where Obata would hand a book to Fukuzawa saying, "This is interesting," and Fukuzawa would read it. So, the two were in a reciprocal relationship.

To jump ahead a bit, when the "Jiji Shinpo" was later launched, its motto was "impartial and non-partisan." However, he clearly stated that this was merely a cover against the government and that everything was planned and read by Fukuzawa and Obata. Everything was "censored" by Fukuzawa and Obata. I position it as an organ of opinion that showed Fukuzawa's partisan nature.

In other words, what was published in "Jiji Shinpo" represented the thoughts of Fukuzawa and Obata, and they took a style of leading the discussion in a certain direction. I believe this is something Obata and Fukuzawa had been doing together consistently since "Gakumon no susume (An Encouragement of Learning)." Therefore, it wasn't that Obata supported Fukuzawa from the shadows, but rather, it was based on the premise of a collaborative work between the two.

I think it was Obata who tried to firmly convey the issues Fukuzawa constantly brought up since "Things Western (Seiyō Jijō)" by showing the evidence from the original texts. So, couldn't they be described as having a relationship where they merged to create a single work?

In other words, is it the image of them creating in a sort of workshop? Until now, the light of Yukichi Fukuzawa was too strong, and Obata was only positioned as his right-hand man. However, in reality, they sharpened each other, and Fukuzawa himself may have been greatly influenced by Obata.

Even in "An Outline of a Theory of Civilization," Fukuzawa writes about Obata in the preface: "In particular, I troubled Mr. Tokujirō Obata to review it and requested his corrections, which greatly increased the value of the theory in many places."

A noteworthy point of Obata's literary activity is that he translated the works of John Stuart Mill and Tocqueville, which served as extremely important ideological sources for Fukuzawa in developing his political theories on civilization and decentralization.

"Joboku Jiyu no Ron" is a translation published by Obata in 1873 (Meiji 6) from the English version of the discussion on the freedom of the press in "Democracy in America" by the French thinker Tocqueville. It is a valuable work published at a very early stage, both in terms of the reception of Tocqueville and the discussion of the freedom of the press.

Later, in 1876 (Meiji 9), Obata translated passages from the English version of Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" concerning "public spirit" (giki), the distinction between "government" (seiken) and "administration" (chiken), and centralization versus decentralization, publishing them in the magazine "Katei Sodan." These translations were introduced in Fukuzawa's "On Decentralization of Power, Advocating Less Centralized Government in Japan" (1877), written around the same time, and it is inferred that Fukuzawa was influenced by these translations by Obata.

As is well known, Fukuzawa's "On Decentralization of Power, Advocating Less Centralized Government in Japan" is a work that directly discusses the contemporary political situation where rebellions by disgruntled former samurai were becoming a problem. In it, Fukuzawa, while quoting Obata's translation of Tocqueville, advocates the importance of people establishing "local decentralization" to participate in "public affairs"—which has a "different source" from "government"—and cultivating "patriotism" rooted in the "spirit of self-governance."

Recently, through a graduate school seminar, I have been comparing the English version of Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" with Obata's translation, and various interesting things are coming to light.

First, while Obata's translation occasionally uses difficult words, as a whole it is very readable and can be said to have a high degree of completion as a translation. Influenced by his deep foundation in Confucianism, the translation gives the impression of being concise yet striking at the essence.

Furthermore, when compared with the English text, I encounter many places where Obata's translation intent seems to emerge.

As one small example, in the piece titled "A translation of a chapter discussing the public spirit of the United States people from the book 'Democracy in America' by the Frenchman Mr. Tocqueville," Tocqueville's argument distinguishing between natural patriotism and patriotism with a rational character is translated. In particular, the latter, rational patriotism, is introduced in Fukuzawa's "On Decentralization of Power, Advocating Less Centralized Government in Japan" as "patriotism of reflection" that accords with "reason."

Here, Tocqueville explains loyalty as a form of patriotism that can be called a kind of religion based on the former, natural attachment. What is interesting is that Obata uses the term "Sonno" (revere the emperor) as the translation for this "loyalty." Through this, the reader understands via Obata's translation that patriotism like the "Sonno" ideology is a temporary thing based on natural attachment, and that in the world to come, a different, rational patriotism based on participation in politics and administration is required. From this, we can see that for Obata, translation was not merely an academic endeavor but was actually a political act.

By the way, when contrasted with Fukuzawa's "On Decentralization of Power, Advocating Less Centralized Government in Japan," it also becomes clear that there are places where Fukuzawa added to Obata's translation without notice.

In the preface to "On Decentralization of Power, Advocating Less Centralized Government in Japan," Fukuzawa states, "This single volume is a record of the tea-time chats of our fellow members at their occasional meetings." Obata and Fukuzawa likely discussed current politics while showcasing their academic achievements through these "meetings." I can visualize the state of Keio University at that time, with repeated discussions moving back and forth between scholarship and politics.

In this way, they encountered the works of Western thinkers like Tocqueville, gained intellectual inspiration from them, and tackled the political challenges of Meiji Japan unfolding before their eyes.

In 1875 (Meiji 8), the Libel Law and the Press Ordinance were issued. At that time, the only one properly criticizing them was "Yubin Hochi," and an article was published under Obata's signature clearly as a critique of the Libel Law. It has received almost no attention, but this is also an achievement of Obata.

However, at the stage of 1873 (Meiji 6), such issues of publication probably hadn't surfaced directly. In that context, he brought up the issue of freedom of the press. Moreover, since it was before the Freedom and People's Rights Movement, it was very early as a consideration of the issue of freedom.

He must have been moved by reading Tocqueville, and while I don't know what Fukuzawa thought at the time, they both supported "Yubin Hochi" and were writers for it. Ultimately, Obata was more conscious than anyone else of the meaning of emphasizing freedom of the press. As a result, while Fukuzawa released various works, Obata ended up protecting Fukuzawa.

Therefore, while the image of a pioneer of civilization belongs to Fukuzawa, I would like to evaluate Obata as a person who took leadership in such basic matters.

Tocqueville became a sensation after the Freedom and People's Rights Movement began, but "Joboku Jiyu no Ron" had more impact than that. I see "Joboku Jiyu no Ron" as one of the things that provided the ideological basis for the movement, along with Nishi's "Taisei Kokuhōron" and Mill's "On Liberty," which influenced people like Emori Ueki.

I think you are exactly right.

The fact that Tocqueville's argument—which is important even in political philosophy—that cracking down on freedom of the press leads to despotism was translated at this time has extremely great significance in the history of Meiji thought.

The relationship between Obata and Fukuzawa has become quite clear, but at the same time, Obata supported Keio University in practical matters and played an important role.

I believe Obata, separately from Fukuzawa, was thinking about how the modern society of Meiji should be created. His perspective on how to change from feudalism to the prefecture system was not just about the change from the Tokugawa period, but an interest in how to manage the transition from feudal to prefectural while considering the changes of the past six hundred years.

In that context, he thought about what should be read and discussed with students at Keio University, and translated and introduced Tocqueville, Mill, and overseas religious theories. I think Obata taught students and, while discussing with them, compiled his own works.

While there was the anecdote about the Kaiseijo I mentioned earlier, there are also recollections that Fukuzawa's classes were very simple and easy to understand for students, but Obata's classes were very difficult. Presumably, the classes at the Kaiseijo were for teaching techniques, but at Keio University, they were not. Obata wanted to make it so that even reading in Japanese translation, one could obtain the same amount of information as the original book. He wanted to convey the concepts and ideas he gained from Tocqueville and Mill. For that reason, he likely used free translation or omitted parts where he felt the reader wouldn't understand without the base knowledge.

Also, within Obata, there was a very strong consciousness of "Wagatō" (Our Party), and while he had different thoughts from Fukuzawa, he had a sense of being within one large group of companions. And gradually, for the sake of that "Our Party," the portion that Obata had to carry increased. After 1877 (Meiji 10), with the Satsuma Rebellion and the management of the Juku declining, Obata felt more strongly than Fukuzawa that the Juku had to be maintained, and that work kept increasing.

Fukuzawa continued to release books until he died, but Obata did not release any single volumes after 1888 (Meiji 21). Also, as Fukuzawa wrote, I believe the idea for Kojunsha came from Obata, but the practical work was his. Even with "Jiji Shinpo," it's doubtful how much Fukuzawa actually proofread the articles, and I think Obata's burden grew larger and larger. As a result, the impression of him being Fukuzawa's supporter became stronger, and neither a biography nor a collected works was released. As it is evaluated that without Obata there would be no achievements for Keio University, the part where they were able to continue precisely because Obata was there is truly very large.

Keio University began releasing the "Keio Gijuku Academic and Accounting Report" from 1890 (Meiji 23). Obata also wrote the preface for this. He said that since the Juku had become this large, they had to let the public know what kind of education the Juku was providing, and that they had to report the accounts properly or they wouldn't be able to collect donations. Conveying such things was also a major role for Obata.

What I thought while creating this collection of Tokujirō Obata's works was that Obata's writing and translation activities up until around 1877 had a very strong influence on Fukuzawa. Obata was not doing this because he was told to by Fukuzawa; rather, he was thinking about what should be translated based on his own interests. I believe one of those interests was the issue of local self-government. As for why Obata became interested in local self-government, I think the fact that he was born into the upper samurai class of the Nakatsu Domain was a major factor.

In fact, the people who handled the administration of the Nakatsu Domain from the Return of Lands and People (Hanseki Hōkan) until the Abolition of Domains and Establishment of Prefectures (Haihan Chiken) were Obata's associates. Obata understood that how to respond on the ground was a critical issue as everything from the tax system onward was changing. Therefore, at his core was the question of how to transition from a feudal system to a prefectural system. I believe that is where his interest in local self-government grew stronger.

In Fukuzawa's case, he had moved to Edo early on, and the people from the Nakatsu Domain around Fukuzawa were not in a position where they actually had to settle the confusion from the Return of Lands and People to the Abolition of Domains and Establishment of Prefectures. I think there is a structure where Fukuzawa would look at what Obata translated or summarized, think "that is also an issue," and incorporate it into his own writings.

If we don't clarify that, we won't understand Fukuzawa's achievements, and we will lose sight of what the people who were actually in administration during the Meiji transition period were thinking and how they created a new society.

That's true. By the way, Kōjunsha was established in 1880, and Mr. Kawasaki, you have also conducted research on Kōjunsha. For what purpose was Kōjunsha founded, and what role did Obata play within it?

In its first year or two, Kōjunsha included people from all walks of life, from bureaucrats to politicians and thinkers. Its regional reach was also very diverse. While it was an organization primarily created by Keio graduates, I see it as having been positioned as a medium of public opinion to counter the government.

However, prior to the Political Crisis of 1881, it was a time when Fukuzawa was being consulted by Kaoru Inoue and Hirobumi Ito about newspapers. So, for Fukuzawa, he wanted to create a medium of public opinion that included politicians who were not part of the old regime. This meant positioning it as an entity centered on debate as a symbol of civilization, which Fukuzawa had advocated since Things Western (Seiyō Jijō).

It's not clearly visible exactly how Obata moved, but in any case, with Obata as the axis, members like Heigorō Shōda, Fumio Yano, and Tatsui Baba built up Kōjunsha through discussion. From an outside perspective, no matter how much they claimed otherwise, I think it was a natural progression for it to be seen as a "political" organization. With Obata himself at the core providing leadership, I get the feeling that after "On the Liberty of Printing" (Jōboku Jiyū no Ron), Tocqueville became a source of ideological support.

By the way, did Obata mention anything about Guizot or Buckle?

While Fukuzawa was interested in the history and theories of civilization by Guizot and Buckle, would it be correct to say that Obata instead turned his attention to Mill and Tocqueville—that is, to freedom of speech and local self-government?

I feel there might be a clue there to finding the differences between the two.

It is also interesting that Obata translated Mill's "Three Essays on Religion." From that, it might be possible to see Obata's own view of civilization and his vision.

"Three Essays on Religion" has a proofreader named Hōzan Kuwana, a former samurai of the Nakatsu Domain. He was a figure who could be called a Confucian scholar; he served as the Kyoto resident elder (rusui-garō) during the Keio era at the end of the Edo period, then served as a senior official (daisanji) of the Nakatsu Domain from the Return of Lands and People to the Abolition of Domains and Establishment of Prefectures. After the abolition, he took notes on Obata's lectures by his side at Keio. Later, from November 1878, he became involved in local administration as a district head for various districts. Why did this Hōzan Kuwana become the proofreader for "Three Essays on Religion"?

He had a foundation in Confucianism that was second to none in Nakatsu, but I don't think he could have read Mill's English and corrected Obata's translation. I think the reason why he was asked to proofread shows who Obata wanted to communicate "Three Essays on Religion" to.

Specifically, what kind of readership did he have in mind?

Obata had a continuous interest in local self-government, and I think his political interest and interest in the political system were stronger than Fukuzawa's. That's why he probably thought it was fine for Kōjunsha to be perceived as a political party and went on to propose a private draft constitution.

On the other hand, Obata became the core of a network for introducing Kōjunsha associates to one another and exchanging information. For Obata, Kōjunsha was also an institution for "consulting on worldly affairs" (seimu shijun) and exchanging information about the world. I think he had a particularly strong desire to eliminate the gap in the amount of information between the center and the regions. When thinking about the nature of politics, he likely felt it was important for both urban and regional areas to have the same amount of information.

Thinking that way, I believe his intention for "Three Essays on Religion" was not just for scholars in the center, but for more people to understand the underlying basis for the new political system to take root. I think he had Hōzan read it in the hope that he could act as an intermediary who had a foundation in Confucianism and could bridge the interpretation.

Mr. Kawasaki, you have been widely involved in editing and publishing the collected works of contemporary figures, not just Obata, including the "Complete Works of Tatsui Baba," "Collected Works of Emori Ueki," "Collected Letters of Yukichi Fukuzawa" (Iwanami Shoten), "Complete Works of Mamichi Tsuda" (Misuzu Shobo), and "Diary and Posthumous Manuscripts of Tatsui Baba" (Keio University Press). How do you view the significance of publishing their collected works now, 150 years later?

To be honest, I'm in a bit of a bind because the collected works I'm involved with don't sell at all (laughs).

However, it is precisely because they don't sell that they must be preserved as historical materials. If we miss this opportunity, Obata will probably never see the light of day again. Even if it's a small print run, it's important to get it into print so that anyone can read it and to make its location clear.

That's true. Sometimes I think Yukichi Fukuzawa pushed all the troublesome tasks onto Obata, which seems a bit unfair (laughs).

However, Obata's writings, especially those up until around 1877, are very important. This is not just to know Obata, but to understand what kind of changes were occurring in Japan during that period. I believe the greatest significance of publishing the "Collected Works" lies in having people understand that.

Until now, complete and collected works have been compiled as a way to honor outstanding thinkers and politicians of their era. However, today, 150 years after the Meiji Restoration, the emphasis has shifted from honoring individuals to preserving as much historical material as possible to show what happened in that era.

This "Collected Works" is also not meant to honor Tokujirō Obata, but rather has precious value as historical material showing how people lived at that time. I believe the compilation of such collected works is important for examining the birth of Meiji Japan more historically and objectively.

Furthermore, in recent years, research on the Meiji Restoration by overseas scholars has been flourishing. Regarding Obata, research is being conducted by scholars such as Harb Hassan of Cairo University in Egypt.

The effort to leave behind important materials that contribute to historical research is extremely significant from the perspective of re-examining the framework of world history.

There was mention of the 150th anniversary of Meiji, but at the time of the 100th anniversary, the government was in a gung-ho mood, and it was a kind of "promotion of national prestige"—in other words, honoring great men. Now it's not like that; it's about re-examining materials properly as subjects of critique. And publishing activities based on that are very important from the perspective of the theory of publishing culture. I am very happy that Obata's collected works were taken up as one of those projects.

In Obata's case, he is not someone everyone knows like Fukuzawa, but I hope that through the publication of this five-volume "Collected Works," a basic image of Tokujirō Obata will be established.

Thank you very much. I hope that many readers will take even a slight interest in Obata and pick up the "Collected Works."