Discussing Keio Rugby

In the past, Takeshi Nozawa of Keio (a forward when they won the 1999 University Championship, currently a director at Yamakawa Shuppansha) used to say, "I'm a Keio right-winger." In that sense, I'm a "Waseda right-winger" (laughs). Since I was a child, I only intended to apply to Waseda, but when I was in my second year of high school and saw the Keio team from the year Toshihiro Matsunaga was captain (1984), I thought about applying there too.

They won the Keimei and Waseda-Keio rivalry matches to win the Taikosen league. Then, in the University Championship final, the match where they narrowly lost to Doshisha due to a "phantom try" resulting from a forward pass was deeply moving. And the following year, when I was a high school senior taking entrance exams, Keio became the national champions.

That was an amazing era.

In the end, I went to Waseda, but those feelings stayed with me. Even watching documentaries broadcast during my university days, they were doing intense practice covered in mud. I always wondered why those smart Keio people were working so desperately hard.

Later, I interviewed members from around the time they were national champions and wrote a book called "Keio Rugby: A Century of Joy" (2000). While thinking about what attracted me during my high school days, I felt that the presence of Akio Ueda was truly immense.

Both of you were mentored by Mr. Ueda, weren't you?

That's right. My first contact with Keio rugby was also around 1984. I was in elementary school, but my father was a Keio alumnus and a rugby fan, and I really admired the "soulful tackles."

The tackles by a very small flanker named Hiroshi Tashiro were so cool that I wrote "6" on my badminton racket back then (laughs). From that time on, I wanted to play rugby at Keio.

I could name all the Keio members. I remember a few from Waseda too.

The front row of Hashimoto (Tatsuya), Gosho (Shinichi), and Nakano (Tadayuki).

I was about three years old in '84 and '85, so I don't remember (laughs). Around the time Keio was strengthening its program for the 100th anniversary of the club (1999), I was surprised to suddenly get a phone call from Mr. Ueda, who had been appointed as head coach (general manager) for the second time, while I was in high school. At first, I was like "Who is this?" but he said, "It's Ueda from Keio Rugby."

I had originally intended to go to Waseda, but that one call from Mr. Ueda completely changed my mind and made me want to go to Keio.

What kind of words did Mr. Ueda use to persuade you?

It was something like "I'm waiting for you" or "Let's make the team strong together." He would also send letters out of the blue; he was very good at that kind of thing.

My impression of Keio around the time I entered (2000) was that instead of being gritty, they had a lineup of glamorous members.

A lot of players were coming from Kokugakuin Kugayama, weren't they?

That's right. People like Makino (Kenji) were there. Shinsaku-san (Takada) is also from Kugayama.

Mr. Ueda had the power to change the minds of high school students who were aiming for other universities. I think he was someone who revolutionized the system quite a bit.

First, Mr. Ueda changed the style. It was a bit of a shock when the school uniform changed to a blazer, but Mr. Ueda believed that was the international standard. Regarding recruiting, his clever use of the AO entrance exams at the Shonan Fujisawa Campus (SFC) was groundbreaking.

That's true.

His idea of trying to win through systems, not just play, was revolutionary.

However, I received a story from Akio Nakajima, a senior to Mr. Ueda who served as the last president of Kanebo. He said, "Mr. Ikushima, if you are going to write about Keio rugby, I want you to record that the intense practice was started by my classmate Kenichi Toh (the 1972 captain)."

I think Mr. Ueda, while building on that history, changed the system and left behind talent like Mr. Kanazawa and Mr. Hirose at Keio.

After the 1985 victory, a period of stagnation continued, and the time when Keio was just starting to change was right in the middle of my four years as a student. In my first and second years, we were 6th or 7th in the Taikosen league. We really couldn't beat Aoyama Gakuin in the opening match. We lost to Meiji, Nittai, and Tsukuba, managed to beat Todai, and for some reason, we could beat Waseda (laughs).

That was in '96, when Moriuchi (Yusaku) was captain.

For some reason, a struggling Keio would beat an undefeated Waseda. The same happened the following year.

However, while Keio was said to have intense practice and strict seniority, I felt it was different once I joined. Masato Hayashi joined as a full-time head coach in '96 and introduced Australian-style coaching. I think that changed everything at once.

And with Mr. Ueda's passion and his power to execute—which could seem a bit self-righteous—he pushed through reforms while brushing aside surrounding opinions, so I think it blossomed during my third and fourth years (winning the University Championship in my fourth year, 1999).

I really felt Mr. Ueda's obsession with victory and his attitude of sticking to what he believed in.

In my time, Mr. Hayashi did almost everything on the field. Mr. Ueda would come by occasionally and say things like "Hey, are you doing it right?" but he wasn't on the field that much.

Once I joined, Matt's (Head Coach Hayashi) cutting-edge coaching theory was a lot of fun. Even though we had won the championship the previous year with orthodox rugby, that year he said we would imitate an Australian team called the Brumbies, and we practiced an attack where we kept the ball and didn't kick. It was completely different rugby, and it was very interesting.

I didn't think about it much at the time, but now that I'm on the management side, I feel that things changed because Mr. Ueda was there. Students only focus on Mr. Hayashi's coaching, but even though Mr. Ueda was the manager, he properly entrusted the coaching to him.

But as the manager, he took the responsibility himself. Yet, once he entrusted it, he left it to them. It might be rude to say he was "very capable," but I feel he was that kind of person.

Mr. Ueda was always in a state of overflowing heat, and I think he devoted the same passion he used when reading the news on Fuji TV to making Keio rugby strong.

He was appointed manager for the second time starting in 1994, and in a world where weekend-only coaches were the norm, bringing in Mr. Hayashi as a full-time coach was also groundbreaking.

He was the first full-time coach at Keio.

I think Mr. Ueda was a management genius. But I have fond memories of him talking seriously when his daughter, who had studied at the Yochisha Elementary School, was entering university, saying, "I'm thinking of recruiting good players from her class so they can win the championship when my daughter is a senior." He was someone who had that kind of childish passion in a good way.

I've heard that the very gritty, intense practice of Keio rugby started to change around the time Keitaro Matsumoto was captain (1995). There used to be something called "mawashi," which was like running as a punishment, but Mr. Matsumoto got rid of that.

But we still did tough practice in my time. However, the difference from the old days was that the reasons had become clear. In the past, during practice after a match, if a coach said, "We couldn't run today because the passing was bad," the Keio way was to say, "Then let's do tackles in the in-goal area." Why do tackles when the passing was bad and you couldn't run? (laughs).

Those things gradually disappeared and it became more rational, but the practice was still incredibly tough.

It was tough. Especially in my time, the strategy was to keep the ball, so we ran a lot...

After the 100th anniversary, they went to Australia and saw a match between the Hurricanes and the Brumbies, and apparently the Brumbies just kept passing the ball for the first five minutes. That's when Mr. Hayashi went, "This is it."

The analysis of the intense practice before that is interesting. Members from the 80s, who are now prominent business figures, say they could endure the intense practice precisely because they felt rugby would end at university.

They had a subconscious thought that "after graduation, I'll compete in my work," and they thought, "If I can't endure this much, I won't be able to make it later." That's why many people say it was easy once they joined a company (laughs).

I see.

Until the 80s, there were almost no people from Keio who played rugby at the forefront of the corporate world, were there? Daijiro Murai (1984 FB), who went to Marubeni, was selected for Japan and said he used to train by running home from Takebashi to Azabu after work.

Then, Junichi Inagaki (Class of 1978), who was the Japan national team director during the Eddie Japan era, said, "This is a bit sad, I want them to continue even after graduating from Keio," and he created the Suntory rugby club to present it as an option. He seems to have reached out to many juniors as well. I feel that Mr. Inagaki's passion for wanting his Keio juniors to continue rugby led to the current Suntory team and the Japan national team.

The turning point for Keio was indeed the mid-90s. Until the early 90s, there was a sense of martyring oneself to the aesthetics of history, with intense practice and frequent use of high punts in matches. High punts have disappeared now.

That's true.

In my memory, since the mid-70s, Keio was already associated with high punts. But in reality, the generation that was number one in Japan showed wonderful rugby by spreading the ball. However, because coaching as a system had not been established, it became difficult in terms of talent, and I think they had no choice but to rely on intense practice.

Ultimately, with Mr. Ueda taking charge of coaching again from the late 90s, recruiting changed, and hiring a full-time coach created an advantage. From there, practice methods also changed toward a more theoretical direction.

That's right. But even now, it's natural that you have to do a certain amount of tough practice. I think rugby itself is that kind of sport to begin with. There are tough moments during a match, and situations don't turn out the way you expect.

Therefore, while we teach theory, if we don't include unreasonable things in practice, players won't be able to handle them in a match. We have to work while maintaining a good balance in that regard.

For young people today, there must be creative ways to make them do those unreasonable things.

Students increasingly can't do things unless there's a reason. So, it's very difficult. It's like explaining the reason why they have to do something unreasonable.

At that time, I think trust—the feeling of "I'll do it because this person says so"—is very important.

Finding the right balance is hard.

Yes. Today's students have various reasons for playing rugby.

But strangely enough, isn't Eddie Japan the definition of unreasonable?

That's true.

Conversely, maybe only adults can endure it (laughs).

The rugby match itself is like that. It's unreasonable, or rather, it doesn't go as expected. So, the premise is that there's no point in only practicing for expected scenarios. You come to understand that when you reach the national team level.

Test matches are the ultimate example; you leave Japan and go to a completely unknown environment. There are various unreasonable things with referees too, so how you fight through that is very important.

When you're in Japan, your community is limited, and if you have the misconception that "we are the standard of the world," I think you can't endure unreasonableness.

It was probably from a little before Mr. Hirose's time that Japan national team players started coming out of Keio one after another.

That's right. Maybe from the generation of Mr. Kurihara (Toru), Mr. Nozawa, and Mr. Uriu (Yasuji).

When I was a senior, the Top League was just being formed. That was one big factor, and I think it became a motivation to continue rugby at the forefront. Until then, there was an undeniable local feel with the Kanto Corporate League and such.

It means the options increased. Whether to work properly, to play rugby while working while considering a career after retirement, or the emergence of professional contracts.

Since Mr. Inagaki was the one who worked hard to create the Top League, it expanded in that sense too. Eddie-san (Eddie Jones) and Keio are close through Mr. Hayashi and Mr. Inagaki. Eddie-san often gives instruction at the Keio grounds as well.

That's right. You also came to visit us last year.

It's true that compared to the past, a path to the Top League has been established, so some people go there, but I think the general framework is still shifting toward work. Even if they receive an offer, many students weigh it against their future and choose a job that lasts until they are 60. Since there are many alumni active in the business world, I think there is a sense at Keio that such a path is 'cool.'

Hirose was like that too, and I think the people who are professional players now will create a path for life after retirement in the future. If that happens, I think more people will think, 'There is a path like that too,' and choose to go that way.

It's a role model for success.

Globally, professionalization began in 1995, and the reason Japan couldn't catch up at first was probably because they were fighting with rugby within a corporate culture. It was like amateurs fighting against professionals.

Eddie completely changed that mindset.

That's right. Everyone in Japanese rugby used to think, 'We can't beat professional players' or 'We can't beat fast players or big players.' Eddie changed that.

Young players on the current Japan national team now naturally think they can win.

The culmination was the 2015 tournament in England, but I feel we were able to prepare well for about three and a half years leading up to it.

The training methods must have changed considerably as well.

For example, the way a day's practice was structured changed. Until then, it was two sessions a day, just divided into morning and afternoon. But the first training camp had four sessions, starting at 5:30, 10:30, 2:30, and 6:00.

Each practice session was shortened to an hour or 45 minutes, but instead, the quality was raised significantly. Eddie's idea was to practice intensely for a short time and acquire good habits rather than practicing slowly for a long time. At first, the days felt incredibly long (laughs).

Moreover, 'Sleep' was scheduled for 9:00 in the morning.

Forced morning naps (laughs). Everyone was confused by that, weren't they?

Yes. But Eddie thought about nutrition, training, and recovery in a very well-balanced way. As a result, players stopped getting injured.

Eddie is an open person, so you can find his training methods and such on the internet immediately.

However, how to use that in university rugby is very difficult. I think that's where the coach's skill comes in. Everyone has the same knowledge, but how do you approach each individual? Even if it works for Japan, the same reaction won't necessarily happen at Keio.

At Keio, you can really feel the effort to manage things through systems. They took on the very innovative challenge of turning the alumni organization into a general incorporated association (Keio Rugby Club, established in 2018). They are also very proactive compared to other universities in collaborating with companies.

For example, the Sado Rice Project, which I helped with as an event. The training camp dormitory received Sado rice from JA Sado. Students are at a growing age, so the cost of rice is no small matter. Seeking cooperation with local governments and companies in that way is very typical of Keio. I think such a backup system is very advanced.

The Keio team runs so much that everyone used to be skin and bones. Then a powerful team like Teikyo University emerged, and the importance of physical strength became a given in university rugby. We thought, 'To beat Teikyo, we first have to make our bodies bigger,' and we had nutritionists come in, but it didn't have any effect at all.

In the end, the only meal they were eating at the dormitory was dinner after practice. That meant we could only manage one meal. First, they wouldn't eat breakfast. For lunch, they didn't have money, so they'd go to a convenience store, and only at night would they eat properly at the dormitory.

That was no good at all, so we decided to serve and manage everything at the dormitory. Then, we ran out of rice, so we asked Sado City for their cooperation. Over the past few years, the physiques of the Keio players have changed quite a bit.

Anyway, every university has spent the last 10 years trying to beat Teikyo. I think Keio has moved in the direction it should have. There are various battles beyond just what happens on the pitch.

Also, what I envy about Keio is that the club members have many opportunities to study with general students. One reason why support from Waseda students has decreased is that the Tokorozawa campus in Saitama Prefecture for the School of Sport Sciences was built, and fewer students in the Athletic Association attend the main campus. It's sad when interaction between general students and Athletic Association students disappears. Keio is blessed in that regard, so I hope they make use of it.

In addition, if classmates from Chutobu Junior High School, Keio Futsubu School, Juku High School, Shiki High School, and SFC Junior and Senior High School appear, support will likely increase. For rugby to remain a star sport at Keio, of course, they have to be competing for the championship.

However, when aiming for a championship, recruiting is what's important. It's tough to compete with Teikyo or Tokai. There are differences in the entrance exam systems of each university and the backup systems after enrollment.

It seems the timing for decisions is getting earlier and earlier.

I really think Keio is fighting well within that environment. I can imagine the hardships of the coaching staff. A slight edge leads to a championship. Mr. Ueda was very good at creating those slight first-mover advantages.

In a world overflowing with information, how do you create an edge? That applies not only to recruiting but also to systems and playing styles. I want Keio to play gritty but win with smart strategies.

I think Keio players are smart. Akihito Yamada (2007 graduate, Japan national team) is like this too; they have an image of how they will perform. I think national team players from Keio are able to look at the whole picture and decide their own position, thinking about what role they have to contribute within the members.

Watching Captain Kei Furuta (School of Medicine) of last year's Keio team at the press conference, I really thought that university rugby is not just about winning. Captain Furuta grew so much over this past year.

That's true. He's completely different from when he was an underclassman.

I also believe that university rugby is a place for such human education. I felt that you have produced great talent.

But after losing the last game of last season (a narrow 19-20 loss to Waseda in the University Championship quarterfinals), I think it's quite difficult for a student to come to terms with that.

No, you're right. But the one who couldn't accept it the most was Furuta. I think he had staked that much on it. He would never say it publicly, but it seems he was suffering quite a bit in his heart. That might be part of the irrationality of rugby.

I agree.

During my four years as head coach, I was always talking to the players about how 'Keio rugby should be like this.' Rather than speaking from above, I tried to make the players think as much as possible.

For example, I would have everyone think about and talk about what 'Keio tradition' is. What exactly is it? By making them think about such things, I hoped they would feel and take pride in the fact that it has continued for 120 years.

Nowadays, it's popular for university teams to pick up trash and post it on Facebook. But I think it's cool to be able to do that sort of thing naturally. I want that to become ingrained in the players.

In that context, Furuta was in a position where he had to think more while exercising leadership, so I think he became able to act in the way Mr. Ikushima praised. I didn't really do anything myself, though.

No, no, it's because of the guidance from the coaching staff. But there are more people like you two who remain involved in rugby after graduation. Shinsaku Takada (1999 captain, forward; currently at Mitsubishi Estate) is also connecting business and rugby.

Yes. Certainly.

That's right. What's interesting is that even if the level isn't the top, people are playing rugby in various places. At the core, I think everyone really loves it.

Keio was difficult in terms of leadership because the range of motivation among the members is wide. At Teikyo or Tokai, they come to play rugby, so if they don't perform there, they can't see their next world. But at Keio, even if you don't work hard at rugby, you can get a job at a good company, so honestly, there are some people who don't place much importance on rugby.

Uniting those people was very difficult, and I feel like I still haven't found the answer to that within myself.

In the past, the manager was only there on weekends, so the captain was the center of the team. That has also changed now.

For example, when doing something, it's different whether the players perceive it as the 'will of the head coach' or whether they do it thinking, 'We decided this ourselves,' even if the head coach guided them.

I placed great importance on talking with the captain and the leaders. I wouldn't budge on things that were non-negotiable, but for things I could concede, I tried to let the players say them as much as possible. In the end, if they do it thinking it came from them, they have more motivation and responsibility.

Coaches today are required to have such 'human skills.' For example, I think Eddie has tremendous leadership, but he actually divided responsibility a lot. There were parts he left to the players.

There were many specialists among the coaches too. For the first two years, I was the captain of Eddie's national team, and at that time, it was a period for building a certain base, so there was a lot of top-down direction from Eddie. Reform was necessary.

But when Michael Leitch became the captain next, his background was completely different, so he started incorporating various things. And at the very, very end, when they didn't listen to what Eddie said, they beat South Africa. On the last play.

So, the style of leadership changes depending on the period, and the relationship between the captain and the manager also changes. I think it's the same for Kanazawa.

Being able to leave things to the players is, I think, a sign of maturity as an organization.

At first, you drop things down from the top to a certain extent, and then gradually let the players decide. Even during matches, the manager is up in the stands and entrusts the field to them. I think that's the interesting part of rugby.

The World Cup in Japan is finally approaching (opening on September 20).

Of course, they have to win. I think there's a possibility they can reach the top eight. The rest is whether they can prepare well from here.

Honestly, I feel the members could be a bit more fixed, but basically, I think they are getting stronger, and they have the experience of competing against the world with the Sunwolves. After that, I think it's a matter of how to use the home advantage.

In the previous tournament in England, it was physically far away, so we couldn't communicate much with Japan. But this time it's in Japan, so players can easily contact friends, which might decrease communication between teammates. I wonder how that will turn out.

Cutting off information. That's interesting. I think it's important to figure out how to increase support by September 20. This is because I believe a country's rugby strength includes the power of its fans.

In the 2003 semifinals, when New Zealand and Australia played, everyone in Australia was singing 'Waltzing Matilda' with all their might to drown out the All Blacks' traditional 'Haka.' At the 2011 tournament in New Zealand, I saw elementary school students practicing drop kicks on their way to school in the morning. Seeing that, I thought, 'This is amazing, we can't compete with this.'

Seeing how rugby is rooted like that, I think public relations activities to make everyone enjoy and help Japan win are extremely important. Anyway, it's important to increase the number of Japan fans.

Akihito Yamada from Keio will be there.

Unlike the previous tournament, they have been getting results, so every country is undoubtedly checking Japan. I think it will be very tough to show their strength in that situation, so I really want them to do their best.

One of the projects I'm doing for the World Cup is called 'Scrum Unison,' which is about learning the national anthems of the participating countries. I want to spread that.

That's good. They are all great songs.

Exactly. Abroad, spectators often sing in the stands or at pubs, and I think it would be great if Japanese people could sing too. Japan doesn't really have a culture of singing songs.

In England and Ireland, there are songs they sing at crucial moments.

The English fight song is the spiritual 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.' I want to establish a rugby song culture in Japan too.

Yes. In that sense, it's a project to learn the national anthems of each country on this occasion.

It really is different when you go to Europe. You feel that this is what it means for a stadium to shake.

This year is the 120th anniversary of the club's founding, and we really need Keio to show its presence. The environment might be tough, but I want Keio to reach the finals of the University Championship once every few years, and win at least once or twice every 10 years. This is a very un-Waseda-alumnus-like statement (laughs).

But if you are always prepared to win, the chance will surely come around. Actually, last year was a chance.

No, that's exactly right. I really thought, "This is it."

In the semifinals, Keio probably had the advantage over Meiji.

However, being in a position where you can aim for the championship is very important. While there are aspects of a match's outcome that are beyond control, I believe that if they continue to prepare for victory, the moment of joy will come again.

I want Keio players to find a sense of purpose and coolness in the fact that they aren't playing rugby because it's "all they have," but because they are choosing rugby from among many different options.

And after all, I think the essence of Keio is breaking down what exists to take on new challenges, so I want them to keep taking on more and more new challenges.

That reminds me, Akiyoshi Nakajima said that back in his student days, even when he was injured, he thought it was stylish to wear his school uniform and go see a play at the Kabukiza Theatre with his arm in a sling. Hearing that, I thought, "That's so Keio" (laughs).

That's why I think it's important to play rugby while acquiring a broad education and culture.

I want Keio Rugby to clearly show its "color." Of course, I'm happy if they win, but if they can play the kind of rugby that stays in everyone's hearts—where people say, "This year's Keio played this kind of rugby"—then they can take pride in that.

I really hope to see that kind of rugby.

Last year's team, the forwards really showed their character. Numbers 4, 7, and 8 just kept working hard. That earnest appearance felt very Keio-like to me.

The reason I care so much about Keio is because of the connections I made with various people when I wrote "Keio Rugby: A Century of Joy." It is a blessing that those connections continue today, and that's something you don't often find in other sports.

What I feel through these human connections is that Keio alumni and students share high social skills. My desire to write a book about the members from '84 and '85 continues because there are so many charming people, including Captain Matsunaga, Tadayuki Nakano (the captain when they were number one in Japan), and Katsuo Fukuzawa (formerly Yamakoshi, a forward during the '85 championship), who became a drama director at TBS.

Seeing the son (Shunsuke Wakabayashi) of Toshiyasu Wakabayashi (the 1986 captain and WTB), who was a key member of the national championship team, playing for Keio now really moves me.

The reputation for having high social skills isn't something created by current students, so it's something they must inherit moving forward. Otherwise, 20 or 30 years from now, people might say that Keio rugby isn't anything special.

I truly hope they inherit the essence of Keio while also showing new sides of themselves.